JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 7]

[aziqbal]

Dear... every tom dick and harry is allowed to be right in middle of manufacturing and allowed to take pictures.
I have seen it on many past occasions.
In Chinese facilities only workers or very high ranked officers can be seen not every tom dick and harry like Abrar ul Haq, Hamza Abbasi etc.
If PAF is so keen to show a/c manufacturing to the outer world, they should build a view deck. Dirty work place as seen in picture gives wrong image of quality control.
If we like to sell beyond Africa, we need to build an image of 1st class manufacturing not only with finished product but also the behavior of the people.

Chinese aerospace factory's have very strict rules that is correct and everything is staged and controlled

They look actually too clean, probably scrubbed prior to photos or high ranking visits no Worksop can be that clean 24/7 unless the photos are staged and deliberately released by Chinese media

Even The CV-16 the Chinese carrier only show completely emaculate photos flight deck hardly showing any skid marks not even any heat exhaust on the deflectors the aircraft no burn marks

So you can't compare the two, I am sure PAC is doing a fantastic job equivalent to their Chinese counter parts

 

[BATMAN]

I am sure PAC is doing a fantastic job equivalent to their Chinese counter parts

When I see daily selfies of common visitors... and dusty floors, cables laying around, people in shalwar qameez... I get not the same opinion as you stated.
The picture of the manufacturing facility I posted, was so dust free and no special cleaning was made before my visit.

 

[razgriz19]

Only PAF allow pictures inside manufacturing facility, no other a/c manufacturer will allow it.
I also see the hall below is dirty and dusty, while in west aircraft assembly halls are extremely clean and dust free.
I'm still in shock to see PAF allows standard shoes and cloths at manufacturing facility... wires lying around !!!!
Operation in charge of this facility, deserves demotion.

No safety culture at PAC it seems. Extremely lax safety and quality standards.
Bombardier increased it production just by making the floor white and installing more lighting. If you dropped rivets on this floor you would have a hard time finding them! (FOD)

 

[aziqbal]

When I see daily selfies of common visitors... and dusty floors, cables laying around, people in shalwar qameez... I get not the same opinion as you stated.
The picture of the manufacturing facility I posted, was so dust free and no special cleaning was made before my visit.

You just confirmed what I said

Just go to the PAC page and look at the floor when delegates visit big difference especially foreign delegations

http://www.pac.org.pk/news

 

[BATMAN]

No safety culture at PAC it seems. Extremely lax safety and quality standards.
Bombardier increased it production just by making the floor white and installing more lighting. If you dropped rivets on this floor you would have a hard time finding them! (FOD)

You are right, no safety shoes, cloths, no security, visitors allowed to jump into cockpit and I'm sure they are touching every where as well, asking all sort of questions.
Check the picture I posted above of an a/c manufacturing facility. Floor is painted with bright color but no out side shoes are allowed.

Imagine, its defence equipment manufacturing, our customers incl. PAF would like to keep things secret. I'm sure Indian agents (direct or via Iran) are all around.

 

[razgriz19]

You are right, no safety shoes, cloths, no security, visitors allowed to jump into cockpit and I'm sure they are touching every where as well, asking all sort of questions.
Check the picture I posted above of an a/c manufacturing facility. Floor is painted with bright color but no out side shoes are allowed.

Imagine, its defence equipment manufacturing, our customers incl. PAF would like to keep things secret. I'm sure Indian agents (direct or via Iran) are all around.

Oh I know 100% what you're talking about. I've been to Bombardier plant in Toronto. Other than a designated walkway painted in the middle of the hangar, none of us were allowed to walk outside that without a hard hat, safety boots and safety glasses. We weren't allowed to take photos as well even though they make civilian aircraft!
And notice the milky white hangar floor in these photos as well.

Members here are so blinded by patriotism sometimes that they don't accept any criticism or short comings of our institutions and/or military.

P.S - yes that's me in the photo 5 years ago!

Bombardier's Vice President was there as well

 

[BERKEKHAN2]

Is TVC engine possible for jf 17

 

[araz]

Is TVC engine possible for jf 17

Everything is possible if you have the money. But is there a need for a TVC engine in a low cost budget plane?
A

 

[Khadim e Darul Ehsaan]

Everything is possible if you have the money. But is there a need for a TVC engine in a low cost budget plane?
A

If paf pilots can dodge tvc planes of their enemies with their tactics then its not required otherwise it is required whether expensive or inexpensive atleast for some fighters which could work for interception role and have possibilty to have a dogfight

 

[GumNaam]

frankly, tvc is probably more of a shiny status symbol and nothing else. you can't tvc your way out of a radar lock nor getting tracked. you can't tvc your way out of s missile chasing you, maybe JUST MAYBE as a last ditch effort to dodge a missile before getting obliterated...

notice that neither the Chinese aviation industry, nor the European aviation industry, nor the american aviation industry is paying any attention to tvc. the only one was the discontinued f22 with only vertical tvc, not even the full 360 tvc. the J20, the gripen, the f35, the eurofigther, the rafeal, none of them have any tvc. seems like the Russians are the only ones who've taken a likeness to tvc, either for fancy sales pitch or as the very last ditch effort to escape from a missile before bailing...

during red flag, the indian su30mki in spite of tvc didn't fair all too well against the 70s or 80s built f15s without any tvc in close air combat simulations, apparently after being slapped around a few times, they lost taste for close air combat against the f15s and f22s and chose the forgo further simulations, only sticking with bvr scenarios at best.

 

[Awan68]

frankly, tvc is probably more of a shiny status symbol and nothing else. you can't tvc your way out of a radar lock nor getting tracked. you can't tvc your way out of s missile chasing you, maybe JUST MAYBE as a last ditch effort to dodge a missile before getting obliterated...

notice that neither the Chinese aviation industry, nor the European aviation industry, nor the american aviation industry is paying any attention to tvc. the only one was the discontinued f22 with only vertical tvc, not even the full 360 tvc. the J20, the gripen, the f35, the eurofigther, the rafeal, none of them have any tvc. seems like the Russians are the only ones who've taken a likeness to tvc, either for fancy sales pitch or as the very last ditch effort to escape from a missile before bailing...

during red flag, the indian su30mki in spite of tvc didn't fair all too well against the 70s or 80s built f15s without any tvc in close air combat simulations, apparently after being slapped around a few times, they lost taste for close air combat against the f15s and f22s and chose the forgo further simulations, only sticking with bvr scenarios at best.

F 15 has 2d tvc, su's have 3d i think, even f 22's only have 2d.

 

[GumNaam]

F 15 has 2d tvc, su's have 3d i think, even f 22's only have 2d.

I could be wrong about the f15 but I don't think it has any tvc at all, if it does then please lemme know f15 version. but as far as I know, there were a few prototypes of f15s with 2d tvc but was never put into production.

 

[Awan68]

I could be wrong about the f15 but I don't think it has any tvc at all, if it does then please lemme know f15 version. thx.

Its experimental but it proves that they are nt completely sidelining tvc, and frankly su's piloted by indians dont count as serious test of the aircrafts potential.

 

[GEMINI]

https://www.facebook.com/

Why we can't make such promotional videos for thunder?

 

[araz]

If paf pilots can dodge tvc planes of their enemies with their tactics then its not required otherwise it is required whether expensive or inexpensive atleast for some fighters which could work for interception role and have possibilty to have a dogfight

I remain unsure in the presence of HOBS and HMCS what utility if any will TVC have in WVR.
Perhaps an expert can share his/her thoughts.
A