JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 5]

[Informant]

comparing mki with j-17 is a Insult of this Beast.Its Still sane for block 52 + But Not Jf-17. Mki is at different class and Level of that jf-17

Nobody is comparing them, you need to understand the convo before budging in. MKI has a huge signature compared to Thunder. Massive infact. This makes it vulnerable, though MKI is in a class of its own.

 

[Chak Bamu]

comparing mki with j-17 is a Insult of this Beast.Its Still sane for block 52 + But Not Jf-17. Mki is at different class and Level of that jf-17

JF-17's design took Flankers into account. Even though JF-17 is not as capable, it has a fair chance of surviving an engagement. With good tactics, JF-17 could bring a flanker down.

In your penultimate post, you claimed that EW package on MKI makes it difficult for another fighter to detect it. I find that hard to believe. Perhaps you meant that jammers make it hard to lock-on an MKI? Any EM emission is a potential give away and I can not see how EW can help MKI to escape detection. Could it be that you are hinting at DRFM?

 

[HRK]

Yes recent interviews quote a range of 140-150 km range but for 5 m2 target and roughly 110km for 3 m2...

previous posts ...

1nm=1.852 KM, => 1x60nm= 1.852KMx60nm= 111.12 KM

earlier reported ranges were 130KM for target of 5m^2 RCS, and 75Km for target of 3m^2 RCS, if this article indicate improvement and we consider latest BVR development for JF-17then likely scenario emerges as this improvement is for target of 3m^2 RCS

SD-10 is supposed to have range of about 70+ KM
SD-10B is supposed to have range of about 100+ KM

130km for a 5sqm target corresponds to 114km (near enough 60nm) for 3sqm.

 

[Informant]

Dont disgrace F15 by comparing it to MKI...JF 17's spit is more than enough to shoot a MKI

Somebody neg this guy. Idiot.

 

[NKVD]

Nobody is comparing them, you need to understand the convo before budging in. MKI has a huge signature compared to Thunder. Massive infact. This makes it vulnerable, though MKI is in a class of its own.

You are quoting Information based on old assessment rcs of Mki and N011 Bars are further upgraded eg the radar out put is increased from 5KW to 10Kw

Radar Cross Section (RCS)
RCS (m2)RCS (dB)
automobile 10020
B-5 2100
B-1(A/B) 10
F-15 25
Su-27 15
cabin cruiser 1010
Su-MKI 4
Mig-21 3
F-16 5
F-16C 1.2
man 10
F-18 1
Rafale 1
B-2 0.75 ?
Typhoon 0.5
Tomahawk SLCM 0.5
B-20. 1 ?
A-12/SR-71 0.01 (22 in2)
bird 0.01-20
F-35 / JSF 0.005-30
F-117 0.003
insect 0.001-30
F-22 0.0001-40
B-2 0.0001-40

Source:
Radar Cross Section (RCS)

 

[Informant]

You are quoting Information based on old assessment rcs of Mki and N011 Bars are further upgraded eg the radar out put is increased from 5KW to 10Kw

Radar Cross Section (RCS)
RCS (m2)RCS (dB)
automobile 10020
B-5 2100
B-1(A/B) 10
F-15 25
Su-27 15
cabin cruiser 1010
Su-MKI 4
Mig-21 3
F-16 5
F-16C 1.2
man 10
F-18 1
Rafale 1
B-2 0.75 ?
Typhoon 0.5
Tomahawk SLCM 0.5
B-20. 1 ?
A-12/SR-71 0.01 (22 in2)
bird 0.01-20
F-35 / JSF 0.005-30
F-117 0.003
insect 0.001-30
F-22 0.0001-40
B-2 0.0001-40

Source:
Radar Cross Section (RCS)

These are non weapon RCS. Once an airplane is loaded with external weapon that is where the RCS increases. In the sky it will be very easy to pick up on an MKI because of it's huge aperture. What do you not get? Jammers? EW, ECW, ECCW have no play here.

 

[NKVD]

JF-17's design took Flankers into account. Even though JF-17 is not as capable, it has a fair chance of surviving an engagement. With good tactics, JF-17 could bring a flanker down.
In your penultimate post, you claimed that EW package on MKI makes it difficult for another fighter to detect it. I find that hard to believe. Perhaps you meant that jammers make it hard to lock-on an MKI? Any EM emission is a potential give away and I can not see how EW can help MKI to escape detection. Could it be that you are hinting at DRFM?

No the Problem some of the member quoting older assessments Eg radar N011m bars are upgraded the Peak out out is upgraded so is the AVg output the Rcs are also reduced in recent blocks and Can Reduce further in Super 30 Upgrade

These are non weapon RCS. Once an airplane is loaded with external weapon that is where the RCS increases. In the sky it will be very easy to pick up on an MKI because of it's huge aperture. What do you not get? Jammers? EW, ECW, ECCW have no play here.

Maximum internal fuel - 9,640kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling) - 3000kms
Max ceiling - 17.3km
Max Speed - Mach 2.25
Canards - Yes
Crew - 2
Max Afterburner Thrust - 12500kgf, Emergency Thrust - 12800kgf
External Fuel Tanks - No
Composites - Not in significant quantity.
Empty Weight - unknown. Estimated to be around 18400kgs.
Airframe life - 3,000hrs or 15 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - No
RCS - official estimate 8-11.5m2
Airbrake - Yes
Supercruise- No


Radar-
This deserves a separate mention. Because this is where the difference is at its max.
Su-30MKI has a N-011M BARS Radar
Transmitter peak power - 5kw
Transmitter average power - 1.2kw
Can Track- 15 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 140 km(Upgraded Radar with upgraded transmitter power, if any in service, its range is unknown.)



DATA FROM OFFICIAL SUKHOI and NIIP WEBSITES. Not Wikipedia!

 

[Informant]

No the Problem some of the member quoting older assessments Eg radar N011m bars are upgraded the Peak out out is upgraded so is the AVg output the Rcs are also reduced in recent blocks and Can Reduce further in Super 30 Upgrade


Maximum internal fuel - 9,640kgs
Max Range(without mid-air refueling) - 3000kms
Max ceiling - 17.3km
Max Speed - Mach 2.25
Canards - Yes
Crew - 2
Max Afterburner Thrust - 12500kgf, Emergency Thrust - 12800kgf
External Fuel Tanks - No
Composites - Not in significant quantity.
Empty Weight - unknown. Estimated to be around 18400kgs.
Airframe life - 3,000hrs or 15 years(at 200 hours flight time each year)
Internal Jammer - No
RCS - official estimate 8-11.5m2
Airbrake - Yes
Supercruise- No


Radar-
This deserves a separate mention. Because this is where the difference is at its max.
Su-30MKI has a N-011M BARS Radar
Transmitter peak power - 5kw
Transmitter average power - 1.2kw
Can Track- 15 Targets
Can Simultaneously Engage - 4 Targets
Max Detection for 5 sqm RCS - 140 km(Upgraded Radar with upgraded transmitter power, if any in service, its range is unknown.)



DATA FROM OFFICIAL SUKHOI and NIIP WEBSITES. Not Wikipedia!

I know about what you posted, my comment wasnt comparing radars but the RCS aperture of a loaded and armed MKI. MKK RCS is over 13 square meters. So MKI is similar. And that my dear friend even for KLJ-7 is big enough to find from very very far. How MKI tackles it is another topic and that is not being discussed here. This is offtopic anyways back to the thread.

 

[RAMPAGE]

@Informant @NKVD

You guys are ruining a thread which is not meant for comparison.

Both of you don't even know how an MKI vs Thunder situation works !!!

I'll suggest the two of you to educate yourselves by looking up some thread's which are meant for this purpose.

 

[Kompromat]

can we quit the MKI debate?

 

[RAMPAGE]

@Manticore

Please clean the thread !!!

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Dont disgrace F15 by comparing it to MKI...JF 17's spit is more than enough to shoot a MKI

Oh so JF-17 is some kinda 'spitoon'? Did'nt know that?
Is it a WVR 'Spit' or BVR 'Spit'; miyaan?
In any case; better to wear a rain-coat before 'spitting'. At that kinda speed; most of that 'spit' will come back.

 

[Bilal.]

Found something interesting KLJ V2 seems to be the the watered down version of J-10 B phased array swash plate radar

Chinese Swashplate Phased Array Radar for fighter jet

Whatever it is, its not a slotted array radar.

It doesn't work like that the ranges aren't proportional to the size. You have to use the formula.
If the stated range was 130km for a bigger target 5m^2 in look up, the smaller target of 3m^2 should be detected around 114km.

Also, I've not heard that 140-150km range referenced anywhere. But, if the 130km figure is properly interpreted, an MKI sized target will be picked up by the KLJ-7 at a very very long range.

Yes there is a logarithmic formula, I have forgotten it though, could you please share it?

 

[Jungibaaz]

Yes there is a logarithmic formula, I have forgotten it though, could you please share it?

This one serves for when one stated range for a stated target is used, ((new rcs/old rcs)^(1/4))*range for the old rcs=range for the new rcs.

In case of the JF-17's supposed 130km for target sized 5m^2.

New target being 3m^2. ((3/5)^(1/4))*130=114.4km detection range
If the same is done for an MKI sized target say 15m^2 armed. ((15/5)^(1/4)*130=171km detection range.

Note: this is not a cue for all to start the MKI vs JFT thing again.

 

[janon]

Yes there is a logarithmic formula, I have forgotten it though, could you please share it?

It's not logarithmic - the max range of detection is directly proportional to the fourth root of RCS (among other factors). In other words, all other factors being the same, the maximum detectable range can be calculated by the formula given above by manticore.

To give a simplistic scenario, with a lot of implicit assumptions,