JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Edevelop]

I found a new pic. I'm sure most of you guys haven't seen this:

 

[SQ8]

Special Plans divison falls under Director Kidwai and it is hard to believe a department under Kidwai will misuse it's funds.

What's not having funds got to do with having transparency in a fighter program? JF-17 is a light aircraft, which will have minimum effect against Rafael or SU-30 or upgraded Mirages, So when will PAF will come out of cold war thinking of not disclosing things.

What JF-17 is fielding in terms of technology is already possessed by adversary, and hiding the program updates only give impression of foul play.

the funds are very transparent..
And so is their use..
But there are capabilities that are not declared..
Not even the US declares the exact capabilities of the Aim-120D apart from giving estimates.. the same is for the JF-17.
Do you question the US for that before you question PAC?

As for SPD.. the allegation is not of misuse of funds.. its of "Khulla Khata"..
You do not know what is going on in there..not publicly.
For the JF-17.. any member of parliament may ask for program details and exact expenditure.
The PAF simply does not go around announcing it.. precisely because of the reason I stated earlier.
When things are announced.. they are announced with concrete results and capabilities...

wishful thinking. These improvements will only be known to commoners through third party sources like Alen Warnes articles, Or when JF-17 sold to another country.While Commoners will be told repeatedly that in the name of national security, you will not get a sneak peak. But we will tell you things when we give interviews to foreign magazines.

Your contention on not knowing about the JF-17 seems misplaced..
as most commoners in Pakistan were till recently happy with seeing a F-7 make a steep turn at the Defence day mela and make their "oohs" and "aahs" there.

I do agree that there is misplaced secrecy with the Jf-17 when it comes to locals.. but then with lame journalism present in our media.. there isnt much to look forward to when making such information releases.
even the USAF does not put all that there is on its websites or information centre's.
All the knowledge is reported via aviation journalists. ..any other information is available in vague terms such as "so and so..increment.. and this increase in A2G capabilities ..etc".
Even out there you cant walk into a US PR office and request all sorts of technical details about the F-22 as a common fan.

 

[Jango]

Not trying to poke in, but it is Strategic planning division, not special plan.

 

[TAC]

With regard to updates on the jf-17 -- I think there is a need for some patience. Lets not forget that the Dubai Airshow was not that long ago - where we got detailed breifings on the project progress so far and plans over the next few years. PAF is not going to do a press release every time a new weapon is tested etc. I don't think PAF is trying to keep the JF-17 some big secret - when the next oppertunity arises - maybe Farnborough - we are sure to get an update. But there is a need to be balanced / modest in what we expect. These things rarely move as quickly as we would like.

 

[BATMAN]

Hi,

The reason russia sells RD93 is that it is not a game changer---.

Hi,

Sir ji, I believe that RD-93/RD-33 is inherently sanction proof.
Russia has marketed it so widely in its life time that it has become an international product.
There are many (certified/uncertified) companies and channels involved in the business of after sales support of RD-33.
I was surprised to see that even in Bangladesh, companies are involved in RD-33 spares business.
I'm sure there is a big buffer of of RD-33 spares in shape of private stocks / pipeline orders.

However, It was only recently that Russia had focused on improving its quality and it is only recently that RD-93 has become more competitive to western counterparts. Which is gluck for Pakistan.
Yes, in beginning Russia did hesitated to deliver improved thrust engine, but after first 50 all engines delivered were with improved thrust and I'm sure the initial fifty are already upgraded.

 

[Donatello]

I found a new pic. I'm sure most of you guys haven't seen this:

Is that the LS-2 glide bomb on the wing pylon, or the H2/H4 ones?

 

[BATMAN]

Is that the LS-2 glide bomb on the wing pylon, or the H2/H4 ones?

Those unguided bombs are clear enough... to have any doubts!

 

[Dazzler]

Those unguided bombs are clear enough... to have any doubts!

Those are LS-6 satellite guided bombs, not unguided ones.

 

[Beast]

-Post repeated...

 

[BATMAN]

Those are LS-6 satellite guided bombs, not unguided ones.

Thanks for correction, but here is no propulsion!

We saw them during high mark falling like unguided bombs!

 

[Dazzler]

There is no propulsion!

We saw them during high mark falling like unguided bombs!

Watch the missile tail section covered with white coating, forward is the folded wing unit, the unguided bombs in your pic are MK-8x series whereas the one in the above pic are clearly the LS-6 GPS guided bombs.

For more info and pics, see the link


China National Aero-Technology Import & Export Corporation - Precision Guided Bomb

 

[BATMAN]

And these i suppose are un-guided!

 

[Beast]

Clearly a lot of Pakistan forumer needs to update themselves more.

PLA Guided Bombs

Take a good read of those link and you will know what kind Of precision guided weapon PAF might get. Do not listen to Indian forumer. Most just spreading false rumours. And distorting real facts..

The reason why PLAAF introduced lots of GPS guided bomb is becos China own GPS beidou II system is up and running most of the Asian continent including India , Pakistan sky. Of cos, the whole china and Taiwan.. Now PAF has ability to use sanction proof GPS signal for their own defense.

 

[MastanKhan]

The first part is correct, but then why do you overlook the same reason for the AL 31? When Russia might sell AL 31 to PAF for J10s, IAF might already have S117 engines or possibly upgraded AL 31 versions, while they offer us even to co-develop the AL 41 engine for Pak Fa FGFA. All these engines are more advanced than the old AL 31, just like the RD 33MK engine, that we get for Mig 29K is more advanced than RD 93 for JF 17.

For Russia it is as you said in the first part, a way to make money by selling China and mainly Pakistan older techs and aircrafts, while India is the only country that has complete access to all their latest techs. The fact that Russia sees India as a long term partner is obvious by the change of relation in the last years. They know India is not dependent anymore on their weapons, theirfor they need to offer more, that's why they offer us now not only customised Russian fighters like the MKI, but co-developments like Pak Fa / FGFA, MRTA, engines, helicopters...

Hi,

A game changer is something that brings the playing field closer to being even---. If russia releases Al31 for the FC20----for pakistan----the presence of FC20 in pak colors on fastrack is a game changer---and not what engine india would get----.

In pakistan's case---it bings a potent aircraft in the shape and form of Fc20 into service on the run----now that changes the level of the playing field----.

The FC20 increases the strike capability of paf---. Thank you.

Russia don't see india as a long term partner anymore and neither does india---even though it does state that-----. That time is about 10 years past it expiration date. It is a marriage of convenience now---russia needs hard cash as always---and india cannot walk away from russia just like that because of most of its weapons systems.

 

[Viper0011.]

Hi,

A game changer is something that brings the playing field closer to being even---. If russia releases Al31 for the FC20----for pakistan----the presence of FC20 in pak colors on fastrack is a game changer---and not what engine india would get----.

In pakistan's case---it bings a potent aircraft in the shape and form of Fc20 into service on the run----now that changes the level of the playing field----.

The FC20 increases the strike capability of paf---. Thank you.

Russia don't see india as a long term partner anymore and neither does india---even though it does state that-----. That time is about 10 years past it expiration date. It is a marriage of convenience now---russia needs hard cash as always---and india cannot walk away from russia just like that because of most of its weapons systems.

Agreed. But if I was in PAF's planning, I'd be looking at JFT B II to be stealthy. This is the name of the game and PAF should be ahead of the curve. I think stealth gives PAF a HUGE punch. China has the technology for J 20. Pakistan has also gotten pieces of RAM quoting and associated carbon fiber from OBL raid. I think both of these guys should put the hard work into making JFT B II stealthy as a LOT of India's 'new' tech and radars in their jets would become obsolete. The whole MKI carries 6-8 BVR missiles vs. JFT carries only 2-4 wouldn't matter as you can't lock onto something that you can't see unless its in your face. And that means that as an enemy fighter pilot, you may be getting rid of your parachute straps after a 'successful landing' when you get to see the stealth JFT fly overhead.

I know money and cost are issues but this is ONE THING that's much needed alongside with long range, high altitude SAMS.

In simulations and mocked combat, F 15's used to take out a big portion of a whole enemy's squadron (6-8 jets) before getting shot down. Raptors takes out almost over half of an F 15's squadron before getting locked upon. You can't lock onto something you can't see and if you could, you may be shooting at bugs or birds as Raptor's cross section is like a quarter or a dime. When Raptor becomes visible, it's about 50-100 miles too late. In real world, the opponent would probably see the Raptor from the ground.

And instead of FC 20, I'd like to see PAF having twin turbines with J-11 or 12, similar to upgraded MKI. I think having four squadrons of twin turbines air superiority fighters would do wonders (2 for PAF and 1 dedicated to the Navy supported by JFT and the last 1 as needed by PAF or PN).

So my wish list would look like this:
1) JFT Stealth - use the Block II upgrades but make it as stealthy as possible
2) Long range modern SAMS / ABM's. Use bvr technology and introduce it into a dumb down Shaheen 1 type of a platform or acquire latest ones from the outside.
3) Instead of FC 20, use J 11 upgraded for air superiority

Again, if you take out no: 2, I think the rest are do-able. Just the radar alone for J 11 will give you double the simultaneous target processing capability than FC 20 and three times the range as it can track targets from over 200 mile distance