JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[SQ8]

Technically headed by pakistan; What does that exactly mean, if you could please explain in layman terms.
How much of the airframe design, airframe testing, control system validation, material testing is specified by PAF, if so does PAF have any experience in doing so in the field of design, testing and validation?

That would depend on the Chief designer of the JF-17 and the team allocations.
Control systems, Airframe design had CAE involvement.
Each Team had a mix of Chinese and PAF engineers working together.. taking an OJT role.

As for the last part.. THIS WAS THE PAF's EXPERIENCE BUILDER IN THE DTV of aircraft systems.
They learnt on the previous experience of their Chinese counterparts, and added their inputs..
Thats the reason many team leads were Chinese , so that they could guide the CAE engineers working under them in the aspects of aircraft systems design, testing and integration.

Technically headed mean that the projects impetus, its goals.. its deliverable and time-frame were managed by the PAF. Decisions on avionics, performance management, scheduling was carried out in co-ordination with CATIC. Think of it in similar terms to the MMRCA.. the project starts with co-ordination with Dassault..which heads most of the manufacturing.. and gradually turns to focus on HAL taking over most of the aspects.
Except in this case, the Rafale was not sitting at the drawing boards with a few rudimentary blueprints until HAL came along.. and at no point did HAL ever send manpower to Bordeux to move the Rafale along.

For the JF-17, the manpower had to be sent..to supplement the Chinese engineers ..
Team Leaders were trained to supplement and in some cases supplant the Chinese Leads who were needed elsewhere(J-10B and J-xx programs).

 

[Contrarian]

While a Cm400 based strike may be at greater risk from interceptors.... it also will be delivering a warhead that has a higher chance of getting through defenses(I am assuming that it is slightly more sophisticated than contrarian makes it out to be).I am more inclined to think of the missile as the Chinese 3M-54(klub) based on its size and specifications.

Unless the missile even whilst being supersonic in its flight path to the target is sea skimming/low level, it is likely to be an easier intercept than the incoming subsonic AshM's - as they are necessarily low level flights.

This is because supersonic missiles have a higher detection range compare to subsonic ones on account of higher IR and visual signature.
So if this missile is not flying at sea wave height, chances of detection is higher during the flight path. And it makes for an easier intercept. This much is certain. This is because IN is fielding fleet air defence SAM"s and not just point defence SAM's.
This means that the missile gets engaged before it enters its terminal maneuvers.

And if the missile is indeed more complex than what the reports posted here imply, then it would mean that if the missile is not intercepted during its mid flight range and reaches its terminal maneuver range, then it gets tougher to intercept for SAM's as the flight path then cannot be easily determined.
This part however as you said remains to be seen.

 

[SQ8]

And if the missile is indeed more complex than what the reports posted here imply, then it would mean that if the missile is not intercepted during its mid flight range and reaches its terminal maneuver range, then it gets tougher to intercept for SAM's as the flight path then cannot be easily determined.
This part however as you said remains to be seen.

And it probably will remain that way as such is the nature of most Chinese weapon or defense programs.
Unless an end user outside of the Chinese publishes a detailed evaluation.. we will never know.

 

[MilSpec]

That would depend on the Chief designer of the JF-17 and the team allocations.
Control systems, Airframe design had CAE involvement.
Each Team had a mix of Chinese and PAF engineers working together.. taking an OJT role.

As for the last part.. THIS WAS THE PAF's EXPERIENCE BUILDER IN THE DTV of aircraft systems.
They learnt on the previous experience of their Chinese counterparts, and added their inputs..
Thats the reason many team leads were Chinese , so that they could guide the CAE engineers working under them in the aspects of aircraft systems design, testing and integration.

Then it almost seems that CATIC are more than "manufacturers" as you infer in previous posts. Even if say the prototypes of FC1 were completely built by PAF engineers directive, where would they get the data for the material test; for example coupons for say tension- compression fatigue cycles or tension tension fc's for selecting the material of wing spars. landing gear fatigue cycles and test equipment. edge wise shear samples for AL alloys and data bank for standards. I dont think any aviation company will ever share material research with anyone, and I think you agree to that.

When you say PAF had technical lead, does it refer to , PAF specifying the directives of performance in certain spheres of the aircraft and CATIC tailoring it to the needs, makes more sense to me, but you have better insight on this.

 

[Safriz]

What about the kinetic energy?

Even if the warhead is 100kg while the missile is to hit the target at hypersonic speed.the impact would be several times more

The calculation took into account the combined effect of kinetic energy and warhead detonation.
Total energy comes out as equivalent if 350kg TNT for a CM-400, and 486 kg TNT for air launched Brahmos.

 

[SQ8]

Then it almost seems that CATIC are more than "manufacturers" as you infer in previous posts. Even if say the prototypes of FC1 were completely built by PAF engineers directive, where would they get the data for the material test; for example coupons for say tension- compression fatigue cycles or tension tension fc's for selecting the material of wing spars. landing gear fatigue cycles and test equipment. edge wise shear samples for AL alloys and data bank for standards. I dont think any aviation company will ever share material research with anyone, and I think you agree to that.

When you say PAF had technical lead, does it refer to , PAF specifying the directives of performance in certain spheres of the aircraft and CATIC tailoring it to the needs, makes more sense to me, but you have better insight on this.

Not built on their directive, built with their involvement.. working under Chinese team leads.
I may not be clear in getting the idea across of involvement. Think of it as an internship(much more elaborate and involved than that but for explanations sake) for the PAF engineers at CATIC. Eventually the "intern" stage changed into actual design input contribution.
So if the landing gear cycles were being tested.. PAF engineers would be with the Chinese team at the start on OJT.. then supplement those Chinese engineers that could be pulled off that process. You would probably still have Chinese techs handling the machines that drop the gear or cycle it.. but the calculations/ changes had CAE involvement.
As far as sharing the data.. there was a lot of stuff shared.. suffice to say.. the current PAF engineering team that manages the production line at Kamra knows everything(down to the density and composition of the alloys) being used on the aircraft.
A lot of the test equipment for the JF-17's production models is not Chinese but American.. that has been introduced by the PAF.

Your last paragraph is essentially correct.. but add to it that a CATIC headed joint team of engineers from both CATIC and the PAF tailors it to the needs.
And the involvement of CATIC has gradually reduced to being a 50/50 supervisory role in the manufacturing process. Eventually, as the production line expands and matures.. this will reduce to a 30/70 with the PAF taking on the supervising role entirely.
Currently there is/are Chinese senior engineer(s) that works with the production line manager(s) to make sure that the process o aircraft manufacturing proceeds smoothly. Currently these personnel are gradually handing over the tasks to their PAF counterparts and eventually will only stay on as Liaisons.
There is no actual production line for the JF-17 in China.. just a line to produce fuselages that too tend to be cause for delays as there are only a few jigs for them. Eventually these too will be shifted to Pakistan.

 

[SBD-3]

Isn't giving requirements generally the onset of every project? I dont deny that the plane was created basis PAF requirements..

If you would go to LMCO and ask them to develop a star ship which can travel at warp 8. Would they just oblige you with a star-ship that would fly at warp 8?
We've already seen by the example of J-10 that first step is very difficult. You guys are facing this as well. Now just go back to mid 90s and late 90s when CAC was herself busy in making newly developed J-10 work. Do you expect PAF would have just handed them over the requirements and then still and wait? Do remember that at that time PAF had already accumulated around one and a half decade of experience in managing and operating 4th Gen.Its correct that PAF didn't had sufficient industrial infrastructure to build a 4th Gen aircraft. But it doesn't mean either that PAF engineers and Pilots were dumb about F-16 systems and only took joyrides on this platform. Just consider that PAF kept her Falcons alive and flying throughout 90s WITH SANCTIONS imposed. Should give you some hints about talent in service.

 

[SQ8]

If you would go to LMCO and ask them to develop a star ship which can travel at warp 8. Would they just oblige you with a star-ship that would fly at warp 8?
We've already seen by the example of J-10 that first step is very difficult. You guys are facing this as well. Now just go back to mid 90s and late 90s when CAC was herself busy in making newly developed J-10 work. Do you expect PAF would have just handed them over the requirements and then still and wait? Do remember that at that time PAF had already accumulated around one and a half decade of experience in managing and operating 4th Gen.Its correct that PAF didn't had sufficient industrial infrastructure to build a 4th Gen aircraft. But it doesn't mean either that PAF engineers and Pilots were dumb about F-16 systems and only took joyrides on this platform. Just consider that PAF kept her Falcons alive and flying throughout 90s WITH SANCTIONS imposed. Should give you some hints about talent in service.

That and Intelligence contacts.. that let us purchase items from Israel to sustain our birds.
What is more laudable that our engineers were able to improve engine performance on the F-100 powerplant of the F-16 using gathered information and outsourced manufacture.

 

[SBD-3]

btw some more LD-10 pics

 

[ringmaster]

its good to see alot of activity on this thread again ,thanks to ideas 2012 n zhuai airshow

 

[Safriz]

That and Intelligence contacts.. that let us purchase items from Israel to sustain our birds.
What is more laudable that our engineers were able to improve engine performance on the F-100 powerplant of the F-16 using gathered information and outsourced manufacture.

Back then most of the F-16s were flying without working ejection seats,and pilots knew that.
PAF had to source out surce spares from far away corners of Planet earth and was costing so much in human effort and money that only the parts necessary to keep the planes flying and operational were bought...Ejection seats were non operational due to non availability of spares,and yet our pilots went on to perform their duties.

 

[Armstrong]

Back then most of the F-16s were flying without working ejection seats,and pilots knew that.
PAF had to source out surce spares from far away corners of Planet earth and was costing so much in human effort and money that only the parts necessary to keep the planes flying and operational were bought...Ejection seats were non operational due to non availability of spares,and yet our pilots went on to perform their duties.

Why didn't we try going the Iranian way & tried to reverse engineer what we could ? Granted that 'reverse engineering' entails a lot more than the 2 term word bellies but surely coming up with something would have been better than nothing !

 

[Safriz]

Why didn't we try going the Iranian way & tried to reverse engineer what we could ? Granted that 'reverse engineering' entails a lot more than the 2 term word bellies but surely coming up with something would have been better than nothing !

The most probable cause was expiry of rockets attached to ejection seats..
Back then i wasnt too much of a defence tech geek,and didnt ask much detail from the F-16 pilot friend whom i used to give my empty flat in clifton Karachi, on weekends,so that he could have some refreshing time with his lady friends ...in the morning when i used to pick him up to drive hom to masroor base,he used to have a bad hangover and i dared not ask him anything

 

[Thorough Pro]

Excuse my ignorance, but are there any consumable parts in ejection seats besides rocket boosters? I think, though I may be wrong that even the rocket boosters would have a life of atleast 2/3 years. Buut same is true for all missiles too, they all need to be re-charged after shelf life of propellent/explosive which I believe Pakistan has been doing for quite some time, then why were we not able to re-charge rocket boosters for ejection seats if that was the case?

Back then most of the F-16s were flying without working ejection seats,and pilots knew that.
PAF had to source out surce spares from far away corners of Planet earth and was costing so much in human effort and money that only the parts necessary to keep the planes flying and operational were bought...Ejection seats were non operational due to non availability of spares,and yet our pilots went on to perform their duties.

 

[Safriz]

Excuse my ignorance, but are there any consumable parts in ejection seats besides rocket boosters? I think, though I may be wrong that even the rocket boosters would have a life of atleast 2/3 years. Buut same is true for all missiles too, they all need to be re-charged after shelf life of propellent/explosive which I believe Pakistan has been doing for quite some time, then why were we not able to re-charge rocket boosters for ejection seats if that was the case?

Like i said,i am only guessing what was the cause of non functional ejection seats.
Back then i was a regular visitor to Masroor base through the friend i mentioned,and had heard this from the pilots themselves.

But never had a chat about the cause....