JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[MastanKhan]

mmmmmm, dedicatd naval squadrons, half based where?? Shorkot? middle of Punjab!
Sorry Sir, but cant see the logic!

Hi,

Half for navy---and the other half for posturing in punjab close to indian border---for air superiority---.

 

[MastanKhan]

You missed UCAVs, hell-fire missiles, night vision goggles and tons of goodies which Pakistan got from Nato supplies.

Hi,

No---I did not miss them---the two items that I mentioned are a gift from heavens. Nobody would have given us a tomahawk or a stealth helicopter---.

 

[Jango]

Hi,

Half for navy---and the other half for posturing in punjab close to indian border---for air superiority---.

But that could prove even more costlier, no?

Training half the batch for Naval warfare, and the other half for normal warfare.

naval planes have different packages as well, and different paint coatings , different maintenance units.

So effectively the cost of buying one land based squadron is multiplied roughly by two, no? I maybe wrong here.

Or will their be the same maintenance unit for both aircraft?

 

[Viper0011.]

But that could prove even more costlier, no?

Training half the batch for Naval warfare, and the other half for normal warfare.

naval planes have different packages as well, and different paint coatings , different maintenance units.

So effectively the cost of buying one land based squadron is multiplied roughly by two, no? I maybe wrong here.

Or will their be the same maintenance unit for both aircraft?

Not really. If you did this, you'll incur cost. Can't incur double the cost cuz you have half in one role and half in another. One maintenance facility can serve all.
Different packages don't mean different frame, design, avionics etc. In today's age, multi-role is the name of the game. You now have modes of operations in the same avionics to support the mission and not whole different avionics added due to role. However, there will be some sea-specific avionics, etc. But that one factor doesn't upside down the cost.

 

[Abdul Quddoos]

Aslam-o-Alaikum! Everybody.

 

[Storm Force]

Hasnain 099

Some REAL BIG Assumptions being made here

Even the Russians are expected to induct PAK-FA around 2015-2017, If our neighbouring airforce is able to induct even MMRCA by then, i would consider it a big achievement (looking at their past record.)


Now considering another path and leaving what the JF-17's body structure unchanged and investing in strength multiplier stuff like ESA radar, IRST, Good ECM package, next gen weaponry like ramjet ALRAAMs more powerful and better engine... which would make it more competent against the existing 4th and 4.5th gen. fleet in the neighbourhood at least.

Firstly to MAKE A ENGINE change on JFT to a more powerful and better engine CANNOT be done with out major structural changes to the JFT fusalage. This is inturn takes several years of prototype testing ie 5 years approx.

2nd The cost of adding not just engines BUT bigger more potent radars EW suites and weapons from another generation adds millions to the cost. ESPECIALLY if you trying to import the technology. IF you dont import the technology then you looking at decade of development esp since PAC does not YET have this experience. NOT at the HIGH end you talk about.

3rd You remarked about your neighbours procurement modernisation speed or LACK OF IT implying they may not even get MMRCA by 2014-2015.

Well you would be surprised when i tell you that between

2002 & 2012 IAF inducted 166 brand new fighters ( 150 su30mki & 16 mig29k)
this excludes 11 TEJAS LCAs flying TO FOC as we speak.

In contrast

PAF have inducted just 72 planes between 2002 - 2012

32 F16 (14 + 18) & 40 JFT thunders...


Hasnain i am not bigging up the IAF THEY have really dragged MMRCA but once they seal the deal the RAFALES & FGFA will start to pour into the IAF.

Your neighbours are not limited in options or finance JUST THEIR decsion making some times takes time

 

[BATMAN]

PAF have inducted just 72 planes between 2002 - 2012

32 F16 (14 + 18) & 40 JFT thunders...

It can also be written as PAF inducted 40 planes from 2007-2011

BTW...PAF is set to induct 40 more in next 12 months.

 

[Dazzler]

Now there's a limit to the reduction you can do on a single engine 4th gen. fighter... now is that worth the cost involved in such modification.... even the slightest of changes would require the entire process cycled again right from the design to windtunnel testing to test flight in PT stages FBW laws rewritten.. etc..etc.. more money spent and more importantly time spent and resources allocated...Leave aside US(they have a lot of resources and their Companies are aviation giants)... even Europeans and Russian can't afford it... and in the end of all that what you get is a quasi-stealth JF-17 which an ESA Radar on Mig29 can see from 90km and track it from 80km... what advantage does it provide here ?.. (take into account the AWACS and lot bigger ESA radars on planes like Su30 which would see it at 100+ km and track it from such distances aswell).... now taking the time you spent for making it quasi-stealth into copnsideration and keeping the budget of PAF in mind most of the resources would be allocated towards the project as it has been in past... and after 5 years when you come up with JF-17Stealth block II the neighboring AF would be inducting 1st squadron of their 5th Gen. plane... hence money, time, resources all wasted gone in drain.



Now considering another path and leaving what the JF-17's body structure unchanged and investing in strength multiplier stuff like ESA radar, IRST, Good ECM package, next gen weaponry like ramjet ALRAAMs more powerful and better engine... which would make it more competent against the existing 4th and 4.5th gen. fleet in the neighbourhood at least.

As expected, an incomplete analysis...

Either you missed the point deliberately for the sake of argument or you are unaware of the fact that JFT prototypes had a significant change---from pt-03 to 04 and this change was already rehearsed on CAD software as well as fly by wire. The latter is a subset of type 634 Quad fly by wire on J-10 which helped the process to gain speed unlike other fly by wire fighters that have taken years to synchronize with various parameters. Wind tunnel testing had already been done for all major planned changes which were mentioned by AVM ( retired) Shahid Latif back in 2004. The aircraft is designed on the concept of modularity which means, its airframe has enough flexibility to accommodate quite a few changes including engines of various type (four types including Russian, Chinese, American/ Canadian) and yet does not exceed overall budget.

It is only a matter of cost efficiency and managing the maximum out of this aircraft within allocated budget. More changes are expected in coming blocks but all will remain within cost performance limits. The point is, within its sphere, according to the plan, all JFT blocks will provide a vital component in PAF's future war strategy. What has been achieved so far, is better than anticipated and the trend is likely to continue.

Last but not the lease, rest of your stats have been answered a hundred times so please bring something new next time.

 

[sancho]

ARMSTRONG



You make it sound like PAF is the only air force with AWACS or mid air refuelling..

You do realise I HOPE that IAF has

AWACS both Phalcon from israel & indengious based on Brazillian jet platform.

That they operate 6 IL76 for refulling

And probably have 4 x as many BVRs missles

If your referring to AMRAAM C5 being better WELL some argue the russian r77 have bigger range and better speed.

And dont forget mica BVRs are coming now courtesey of mirage2000 upgrade

" i ask again WHAT ADVANTAGE" ARE you referring to please

Man, when will you stop thinking in these number comparisons and start to think about it in a more realistic tactical scenario. We have 2012 now and not 1999, PAF has made some credible improvements and in some fields are tactically even superior to IAF today. The times of fighter 1 on 1 comparisons are gone, modern combats includes way more that has to be taken to account and the rapid modernisation of PAF on the one side, while IAFs modernisation was delayed has get them way closer to IAF than ever before. Not to mention that there are some geographical advantages and some important changes in IAFs priority as well. We can talk about it via PM if you want, since it's derailing the thread.

Before jumping the gun. look at the thread title and then look what i wrote under the context of this thread. Is it natural for you guys to throw arguments on everything without understanding the context?

And repeatedly mentioning JFT doesn't make you understand that I am refering to the same?

I know the difference between Stealth and RCS reduction

Obviously you don't because the point was that you can't convert a 4th gen fighter design like JFTs into a stealth design afterwards, you can only reduce the RCS to a certain point and I gave examples what could be done with JFT as well (if the required fundings would be available). That's why all the talk about stealth in regard to JFT is simply wrong, because it never will be even close to have stealth capabilities.

 

[Thorough Pro]

Yes! agreed angles would deflect the radar waves away from the source, but what angles? if you attach box shapes under the wings to hide missiles, these boxex would create 90% angles to wing plane and return more of radar waves to facing enemy platforms. Angles along the lines as usually found on diamonds (sort of) do deflect the waves away.

Actually, not exactly correct. Sharp angles are what deflects the radio waves. However, you can't just create sharp angles as you please. In other words, sharp angles have to smooth out with RAM & Carbon Fiber per the geometry to be able to slightly elevate the radio waves to deflect them and the rest get absorbed. That way, nothing returns or gets lost all together and creates a 'blip' on the radar monitor.

JFT is small as is, the RCS is also real small too. Some touch up stealthy work will help it become difficult to detect from distances.

 

[Viper0011.]

Yes! agreed angles would deflect the radar waves away from the source, but what angles? if you attach box shapes under the wings to hide missiles, these boxex would create 90% angles to wing plane and return more of radar waves to facing enemy platforms. Angles along the lines as usually found on diamonds (sort of) do deflect the waves away.

Bro - the box itself is a diamond shaped object, I gave you an example of Raad as its stealthy. The whole plane with these 'boxes' becomes one object with angles that deflect radio waves and absorb some (RAM part).
Then there is another component, Radar signal scrambling / active cancellation, combine all three results in a Stealth. Active signal canceling ensures that not only the signals are being deflected and absorbed, the same signal frequency and the strength is then generated and added to the airwaves. Now Radar initially can't see you as the jet deflected the Radar waves and absorbed the ones hitting on highly detectable areas (like intakes, bottom of the jet, ejector racks, etc). While this was going on, the jet started to spread the same waves through it. The Radar receiver now gets the same waves back from the plane it puts the wave-length together. Guess what? It doesn't know if there is a gap anywhere for both, the deflected waves or the absorbed waves, result is no image on the radar screen. Hope this helps.

 

[MastanKhan]

But that could prove even more costlier, no?

Training half the batch for Naval warfare, and the other half for normal warfare.

naval planes have different packages as well, and different paint coatings , different maintenance units.

So effectively the cost of buying one land based squadron is multiplied roughly by two, no? I maybe wrong here.

Or will their be the same maintenance unit for both aircraft?

Hi,

You can rotate them as well or keep them on two bases in sindh---. Karachi and karachi port are the most important assets of the nation----.

Obviously major maintenance would be done at one place---as for the paint coating---not much difference it makes---u s F18 do both type of missions---sea and land---the coating doesn't change much----.

 

[IceCold]

Your neighbours are not limited in options or finance JUST THEIR decsion making some times takes time

Just one point regarding the above, why do you believe in almost every statement of yours that Pakistan will always be confined in the above matter?

 

[Zarvan]

When are we getting those 50 JF-17 Block 2 Planes which we were supposed to get from China on emergency bases now where the hell are those planes ?

 

[Last Hope]

When are we getting those 50 JF-17 Block 2 Planes which we were supposed to get from China on emergency bases now where the hell are those planes ?

Just in papers, media and records. No where else.