JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Thorough Pro]

Attaching the "BOX" would kill it. Sharp angles and stealth don't mix. LO (low observability) is achieved by eliminiting sharp angles, that reflect radio waves. observe stealth platforms, they all have one thing in common, "Smooth surfaces" specially on the underside and front which is the target of all radar wavaes.

Actually not exactly correct. Traditionally, internal weapons bay is part of the structure of the plane but you can house 2-4 missiles in a box shape weapons bay and hook it up underneath the wings. The box will be designed with specific geometry and RAM to deflect radar signals....this would work for a small plane like JFT.

Imagine if Ra'ad was a big stealthy box housing two bvr / wvr missiles with bays to open and shut...it's stealthy so it won't return a cross section when hooked to the jet...

 

[satishkumarcsc]

Attaching the "BOX" would kill it. Sharp angles and stealth don't mix. LO (low observability) is achieved by eliminiting sharp angles, that reflect radio waves. observe stealth platforms, they all have one thing in common, "Smooth surfaces" specially on the underside and front which is the target of all radar wavaes.

I thought sharp angles are the ones used to deflect the radar waves away. That is what the book I read told me.

http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=AD0733203

That is the book I read. But the airflow turbulence is something to be considered.

 

[Beast]

FC-20 will definitely be a life saver for PAF. However, PAF wants a plane with a fully working engine. We cannot really risk our assets and pilots in a plane that is still running an under-development engine. I do hope WS-10 becomes available. J-10B will definitely add some much needed punch for Air space denial and air superiority roles.

It is not under development. Does it imply to you that they are still working on it when 100 of these engines are already equipping operation units like J-11B,J-11BS and J-15?

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chinese-defence/84838-new-j11bs-ws-10-engine-pics-3.html


It has enter service. I do not know why the talk of FC-20 has drag so long. The last info I heard is PAF wants a deep cut on the price which the Chinese refuse.

To have internal weapon bays, you need enough internal space for the weapon and the mechanism to move it out for firing. To acomplish all that you would proabably need to double the size of the jet which would be just like designing a new jet with new "engine".............get the picture?

Precisely, I am question the person who claim wanted make it stealthy. Read my previous post quote.

 

[MastanKhan]

Khan Sahib...such optimism from our resident pessimist ! Or are you a realist ?

But don't you think that Sancho has a point that technological force multipliers like the AWACs and better missiles are what would construe some game changing ability to the PAF much more so than any air craft that we can induct ! Which is not to belittle the J-10 Bs...I love them but our real tactical advantage lies in our AWACs, mid air refuelling and a much more potent missile inventory !

Hi,

First of all you need to strenghten your point----once you have done that---then the secondaries like the awacs and sam s come into force in our arena----.

It is like a stair step---in order for you to get to the top floor---you need all those---. But your ultimate strength lies in your air dominance fighters---if you don't have them---the enemy will take the other two assets methodically.

As for the FC20 aircraft---the biggest hurdle is the engine. The chinese defence forums have not said anything to the contrary yet----it is the same issue---Al31 is not available for pakistan---the chinese engine is not ready yet---.

I am not a pessimist but rather a realist---I firmly believe in promise less---deliver more---it does not work well at times---but what the hey.

 

[MastanKhan]

ARMSTRONG



You make it sound like PAF is the only air force with AWACS or mid air refuelling..

You do realise I HOPE that IAF has

AWACS both Phalcon from israel & indengious based on Brazillian jet platform.

That they operate 6 IL76 for refulling

And probably have 4 x as many BVRs missles

If your referring to AMRAAM C5 being better WELL some argue the russian r77 have bigger range and better speed.

And dont forget mica BVRs are coming now courtesey of mirage2000 upgrade

" i ask again WHAT ADVANTAGE" ARE you referring to please

Hi,

We are actually discussing our part only----definitely in relation to what you have----but mostly we are talking about the minimal that we need. You have what you got----we don't have the power to stop you from getting what you want to---but just because you have it---does not mean that we must stop just because you have a lot.

We did not mean to upset you by ignoring what you have---may I offer my humble apologies

 

[Viper0011.]

Attaching the "BOX" would kill it. Sharp angles and stealth don't mix. LO (low observability) is achieved by eliminiting sharp angles, that reflect radio waves. observe stealth platforms, they all have one thing in common, "Smooth surfaces" specially on the underside and front which is the target of all radar wavaes.

Actually, not exactly correct. Sharp angles are what deflects the radio waves. However, you can't just create sharp angles as you please. In other words, sharp angles have to smooth out with RAM & Carbon Fiber per the geometry to be able to slightly elevate the radio waves to deflect them and the rest get absorbed. That way, nothing returns or gets lost all together and creates a 'blip' on the radar monitor.

JFT is small as is, the RCS is also real small too. Some touch up stealthy work will help it become difficult to detect from distances.

 

[MastanKhan]

Orangzaib,

Hi---what you are saying is doable---and is not as difficult as it sounds----. Allah giveth and Allah taketh away---and so does amreeka----. This is a strange love affair---those helicopter pieces were a gift from heavens----. Good riddance of OBL---Allah took one misery away from us and gave us a reward----in the from of stealth helicopter pieces----or was it amreeka.

First it were the tomahawk cruise missiles and now this gift----the Lord does indeed work in strange ways----and so does amreeka---.

Your idea of a few sqdrn's of Jf17's to be with some kind of partial stealth characteristics is very intriguing---specially the night flying sqdrn's---actually all the jf17's are night flight capable aircraft---now you add partial stealth capability and that brings in a paradigm shift in its fighting and strike capability.

As for your suggestion of 2 to 3 sqdrn's of J11's----. That was an excellent choice as well----it has been discussed on this board as well awhile ago---myself and a couple of other members have been very strong supportersof that as well---3 to 4 sqdrn's of J11's again changes the rules of engagement---.

Those sqdrn's 1/2 would be deicated naval sqdrn's and half based at shorkot.

Now all you people talk about how pak has no funds---have you people thought about it why pak has no funds---what happened!!!!

 

[Viper0011.]

Orangzaib,
Now all you people talk about how pak has no funds---have you people thought about it why pak has no funds---what happened!!!!

First off, allow me to say I am headed straight to a discussion with Mastan Khan so God help me . I've read majority of your post and they are interesting to say the least. Definitely out of the box.

As far as what happened? When you put the Lords of Corruption Mafia into the Presidential office....that's what's up!! Pak needs a shift in politics. New modern generation to come in, reduce corruption and take their country forward. No one's going to do it for them. Even America will support them as long as they have a moderate agenda. I think that has to happen. Pak needs to be the next Malaysia not Afghanistan and I think the younger generation has a responsibility to themselves, to get educated, to be modern and yet respect their religion and others and to lead their country. No one will come to your house to clean it for you. If you invite someone...they'll take stuff from your house with them (look at Eastern Pak, Baluchistan & Karachi....). Where are the weapons coming from and the training??

Sorry, I am passionate about these topics. But back to JFT. I think the idea is totally do-able with little increase in cost and a TON of increase in capability and pressure on enemy. Remember, you don't need to match your enemy by sword to sword. You just need to overwhelm them with your capability and associated pressure (courtesy of US armed forces methodology). The US did this with Russia's almost twice the size of military and Russia broke apart.

 

[Arsalan]

Orangzaib,

Hi---what you are saying is doable---and is not as difficult as it sounds----. Allah giveth and Allah taketh away---and so does amreeka----. This is a strange love affair---those helicopter pieces were a gift from heavens----. Good riddance of OBL---Allah took one misery away from us and gave us a reward----in the from of stealth helicopter pieces----or was it amreeka.

First it were the tomahawk cruise missiles and now this gift----the Lord does indeed work in strange ways----and so does amreeka---.

Your idea of a few sqdrn's of Jf17's to be with some kind of partial stealth characteristics is very intriguing---specially the night flying sqdrn's---actually all the jf17's are night flight capable aircraft---now you add partial stealth capability and that brings in a paradigm shift in its fighting and strike capability.

As for your suggestion of 2 to 3 sqdrn's of J11's----. That was an excellent choice as well----it has been discussed on this board as well awhile ago---myself and a couple of other members have been very strong supportersof that as well---3 to 4 sqdrn's of J11's again changes the rules of engagement---.

Those sqdrn's 1/2 would be deicated naval sqdrn's and half based at shorkot.

Now all you people talk about how pak has no funds---have you people thought about it why pak has no funds---what happened!!!!

mmmmmm, dedicatd naval squadrons, half based where?? Shorkot? middle of Punjab!
Sorry Sir, but cant see the logic!

 

[kshahzad]

hi
can some body share some pics of JF17 thunder for me ........ kindly try to upload some real pics .....

 

[DARKY]

By saying stealthy it is important to understand that stealth means reducing the aircraft radar signature to an extent that enemy radar detects it relatively late, at times, too late. RCS reduction is on the priority list since the very beginning of the project. PAF needed a jet capable to handle high Gs, excellent agility particularly at low altitude, increase in payload, sophisticated avionic and EW suit, a BVR capable radar (pulse doppler or AESA, both planned) a true fly by wire flight control and easy to maintain and fly with high availability during wartime. These are the plans for JFT during its 5 major upgrades for years to come.

Now there's a limit to the reduction you can do on a single engine 4th gen. fighter... now is that worth the cost involved in such modification.... even the slightest of changes would require the entire process cycled again right from the design to windtunnel testing to test flight in PT stages FBW laws rewritten.. etc..etc.. more money spent and more importantly time spent and resources allocated...Leave aside US(they have a lot of resources and their Companies are aviation giants)... even Europeans and Russian can't afford it... and in the end of all that what you get is a quasi-stealth JF-17 which an ESA Radar on Mig29 can see from 90km and track it from 80km... what advantage does it provide here ?.. (take into account the AWACS and lot bigger ESA radars on planes like Su30 which would see it at 100+ km and track it from such distances aswell).... now taking the time you spent for making it quasi-stealth into copnsideration and keeping the budget of PAF in mind most of the resources would be allocated towards the project as it has been in past... and after 5 years when you come up with JF-17Stealth block II the neighboring AF would be inducting 1st squadron of their 5th Gen. plane... hence money, time, resources all wasted gone in drain.

Now considering another path and leaving what the JF-17's body structure unchanged and investing in strength multiplier stuff like ESA radar, IRST, Good ECM package, next gen weaponry like ramjet ALRAAMs more powerful and better engine... which would make it more competent against the existing 4th and 4.5th gen. fleet in the neighbourhood at least.

 

[PakShaheen79]

RCS reduction has limitation while not changing the airframe and the RAM coating alone cannot make a fighter disappear in air ... Plus, we must not forget that even complete stealth F-117 was shoot down by enemy SA-6 SAM battery in Bosnia in 1990's. I am NOT proposing that PAF must not look for it but I think for serial production, airframe will have to be frozen at some stage. entire testing was redone once DSI intakes were incorporated in PT-04 back in 2002.

So, to me more important investment place in this plane is AESA and more powerful engine.

 

[SBD-3]

Now there's a limit to the reduction you can do on a single engine 4th gen. fighter... now is that worth the cost involved in such modification.... even the slightest of changes would require the entire process cycled again right from the design to windtunnel testing to test flight in PT stages FBW laws rewritten.. etc..etc..

Had that been the case, then there would not have been any prototyping involved. Super Hornet would have exponentional price difference than its previous models, JSF would not have been materialized ever and Slient Eagle would have been as costly as JSF. Aircrafts evolve continously over the time as the newer technologies, concepts are developed and subsequently integrated.

more money spent and more importantly time spent and resources allocated...Leave aside US(they have a lot of resources and their Companies are aviation giants)... even Europeans and Russian can't afford it... and in the end of all that what you get is a quasi-stealth JF-17 which an ESA Radar on Mig29 can see from 90km and track it from 80km... what advantage does it provide here ?.. (take into account the AWACS and lot bigger ESA radars on planes like Su30 which would see it at 100+ km and track it from such distances aswell)

First of all, to make such a claim, you would have to speculate a specific RCS for any such quasi stealth JFT, it the final RCS figure falls below 1m3 the detection range would reduce, if JFT uses passive sensors and doesn't use its Radar the input received by other aircraft would reduce further. So all it has to do is to do enough that when the other aircraft sees it, it is able to engage that aircraft. Ultimate detection is almost a surety with conventional design if you're not able to defeat three important components 1)Radar 2)RWR 3)Heat seeker and there are certainly ways to avoid them.

.... now taking the time you spent for making it quasi-stealth into copnsideration and keeping the budget of PAF in mind most of the resources would be allocated towards the project as it has been in past... and after 5 years when you come up with JF-17Stealth block II the neighboring AF would be inducting 1st squadron of their 5th Gen. plane... hence money, time, resources all wasted gone in drain.

Even the Russians are expected to induct PAK-FA around 2015-2017, If our neighbouring airforce is able to induct even MMRCA by then, i would consider it a big achievement (looking at their past record.)

Now considering another path and leaving what the JF-17's body structure unchanged and investing in strength multiplier stuff like ESA radar, IRST, Good ECM package, next gen weaponry like ramjet ALRAAMs more powerful and better engine... which would make it more competent against the existing 4th and 4.5th gen. fleet in the neighbourhood at least.

There is already alot of activity going on in this direction (see Information Pool for details).

 

[graphican]

Orangzaib,

First it were the tomahawk cruise missiles and now this gift----the Lord does indeed work in strange ways----and so does amreeka---
!

You missed UCAVs, hell-fire missiles, night vision goggles and tons of goodies which Pakistan got from Nato supplies.

 

[PakShaheen79]

UPDATE
=============


Revealed in 1995 as the successor of the cancelled Sino-US Super-7 project, FC-1 (Fighter China-1, max TO weight 12,700kg, max speed M 1.8, service ceiling 16,920m, max weapon load 3,900kg, ferry range 3,480km, combat radius 1,352km, max g load +8.5) is being developed by CAC/611 Institute (with some technical assistance from Russian Mikoyan OKB) as a "medium tech", light weight fighter/ground attack aircraft carrying a relatively cheap price tag (~$20m). As a fighter designed for export, its main customer is expected to be Pakistan who also shares 50% of the total cost (around $150m). It may also compete with second-hand F-16s to seize the market created by the retirement of Mig-21s, Mirage III and F-5s. Currently powered by a Russian RD-93 turbofan (upgraded RD-33, rated 8,795kg with a/b), it may also be powered by a locally produced WS-13 Taishan if it ever enters the service with PLAAF. The A-6 style "V" shaped air-intakes are believed to provide smooth air flow to the engine at high AoA. The fire control radar is thought to be a Chinese KLJ-7 X-band multi-functional PD radar in the initial batches of 8, then subsequently switched to KLJ-10 with a better performance (track 10 engage 2, look-up range 75km, look-down range 45km for RCS=3m2). A European high performance radar (e.g. Italian Vixen 1000ES AESA) has been planned in later batches. Other electronics include an NVG compatible glass cockpit with 3 8"x6" color MFDs, HOTAS, AIFF, 1553B databus and INS/GPS. Weapon load includes both short (PL-5E/PL-9C/AIM-9M) and medium-range AAMs (SD-10A). LGBs (LT-2/LT-3/GBU-16), GPS/INS guided bombs (LS-6), anti-radiation missiles (Brazilian MAR-1) and laser designating pod (WMD-7) can also be carried for ground attack missions, up to 2 C-802A AShMs for anti-ship missions. For self-protection purpose a KG300G ECM pod can be carried. The development schedule of FC-1 was repeatedly delayed caused by various problems, such as lack of funding, the reluctance of western countries to supply advanced avionics, as well as the revised specifications set by PAF to counter the threat from India's LCAs. These specifications included a true BVR attack capability with active radar guided medium-range AAMs (SD-10). However, FC-1's prospect in the domestic market was not very promising, as PLAAF had largely committed to the more advanced J-10 as its new generation fighter along with J-11 and was reluctant to take a large number of FC-1s due to its less advanced design and a Russian engine. After lengthy negotiations, Pakistani government finally signed the contract with CATIC and CAC/611 in 1999 and gave the "go ahead" order to the much delayed project. The development was further accelerated after PAF recommitted the project and confirmed FC-1's technical specifications in detail in February 2001. A full-scale mock-up was quickly constructed. A total of 6 prototypes (01-06) would have been built at CAC. The 01 prototype rolled down the assembly line on May 31, 2003 with two small wing fences. Its maiden flight took place on August 25, 2003. The 03 prototype first flew on April 9, 2004 without the two small wing fences. The 04 prototype was expected to fly by the end of 2005 with full suite of avionics but this was delayed until April 2006 due to several structural modifications. They include new diverterless supersonic inlets (DSI/Bump) similar to those of American F-35 to reduce weight and achieve better performance. A large rectangular-shaped fairing is installed on top of the vertical tailfin which may house ECM equipment. Its flight control includes a Type 634 quadruplex digital FBW in pitch axis and a duplex analog FBW in roll axis. A UV band MAWS has been installed at the root of the vertical tailfin to provide rear hemisphere coverage. Two enlarged F/A-18 style LERX are thought to offer higher AOA as well. The first flight of 04 prototype took place on April 28, 2006, and 06 prototype on September 10, 2006. The first two preproduction JF-17s (Joint Fighter-17, 00 batch/07-101 & 102) were delivered to Pakistan on March 2, 2007, with the nose-tip pitot tube removed. The 01 batch of 6 JF-17s (08-103 -- 08-108) were delivered between March and April 2008. The contract for PAF to acquire 42 JF-17s (mostly assembled by PAC) was singed on March 7, 2009. The first two (09-109 & 110) have been built by CAC. The first JF-17 (09-111) in the batch of 4 assembled by PAC rolled out on November 23, 2009. It was reported in May 2011 that PAF plans to acquire another 50 JF-17s on an "expedited" basis and the negotiation is still ongoing. Besides Pakistan, several Asian and African countries also expressed interest in FC-1, including Egypt, Bangladesh, Iran, Sri Lanka and Azerbaijan. In October 2008 it was rumored that PLAAF might acquire some FC-1s as a low-cost light fighter/attack aircraft to replace its obsolete J-7s and Q-5s but this has not been confirmed. FC-1 passed design appraisal in December 2009. The first taxi test of FC-1 powered by an indigenous WS-13 took place on March 18, 2010. A further improved version (JF-17A/JF-17 Block 2?) featuring an AESA radar, IRST and IFR probe as well as a two-seat trainer version (JF-17B?) are thought to has been proposed and likely be under development as well.
- Last Updated 4/26/12