JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[abdulbarijan]

An interesting read from flight global on the Mirage 2000 deal from the 1990's

lockheed | 1992 | 1317 | Flight Archive

And yes even in this the main obstacle is "Financial".

 

[Luftwaffe]

Do you know how much 100 F-16 BLOCK 52's would cost?

Let me remind you PAF was ready with cash in hand for 77 F-16 Block 50/52 apart from money for inventory to be MLUd, that is where musharraf slashed 59 F-16s for the sake of earth quake victims that money was never found to be used. By now you would have atleast 122 F16s Block 52s/MLUd along with possibly 700 AMRRAMS that is some serious punch. And musharraf fkup bad infact PAF should have protested that we are still in the lost decade but someone in the Air Force also convince musharraf that it is all well we have received PGs nothing to worry about, you see there are screwups on all levels. IF it was in my hands I would have ordered 3 more squadrons of F-16s and AMRAAMs or reach close to that 77 number originally.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Let me remind you PAF was ready with cash in hand for 77 F-16 Block 50/52 apart from money for inventory to be MLUd, that is where musharraf slashed 59 F-16s for the sake of earth quake victims that money was never found to be used. By now you would have atleast 122 F16s Block 52s/MLUd along with possibly 700 AMRRAMS that is some serious punch. And musharraf fkup bad infact PAF should have protested that we are still in the lost decade but someone in the Air Force also convince musharraf that it is all well we have received PGs nothing to worry about, you see there are screwups on all levels. IF it was in my hands I would have ordered 3 more squadrons of F-16s and AMRAAMs or reach close to that 77 number originally.

Sir with all due respect the next time USA puts sanctions on our ***** we forum members will be the same ones saying

"they didn't learn from the 90's"

and yet you are defending the case of us buying more sanction prone stuff...which is frankly not understandable to me especially coming from an experienced senior forum member like yourself....

 

[Luftwaffe]

Sir with all due respect the next time USA puts sanctions on our ***** we forum members will be the same ones saying

"they didn't learn from the 90's"

and yet you are defending the case of us buying more sanction prone stuff.

Hello, did I not point out go for Rafales and upgrade current F-16s IF NOT then PROCURE THOSE 77 F-16s because you have no BETTER SUPERIOR option on hands. Did other seniors not tell us both French and US weapons-systems-Jets are sanction prone BUT you have no other option literally. Think about it IF PAF had gone for 2 squadrons of Rafales and avionics for 3-4 Squadrons of JFTs than you would have seen the face of iaf. It is always Pakistan that goes to test and gets ready for something better and then leaves in the middle and it is hindustan that takes it away from you because they know it, remember those old news PAF is interested in Rafale and tested it a zillion times here Today iaf officially made a deal with Dassault smacked us once again.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Hello, did I not point out go for Rafales and upgrade current F-16s IF NOT then PROCURE THOSE 77 F-16s because you have no BETTER SUPERIOR option on hands. Did other seniors not tell us both French and US weapons-systems-Jets are sanction prone BUT you have no other option literally. Think about it IF PAF had gone for 2 squadrons of Rafales and avionics for 3-4 Squadrons of JFTs than you would have seen the face of iaf. It is always Pakistan that goes to test and gets ready for something better and then leaves in the middle and it is hindustan that takes it away from you because they know it, remember those old news PAF is interested in Rafale and tested it a zillion times here Today iaf officially made a deal with Dassault smacked us once again.

Sir most respectfully one would consider going for the top tier fighters such as rafales and EF-2000's if we have the back bone to support it...thats the main issue we have in Pakistan...

Now I know some would argue that in the mushy era our economy was booming but you see in the mid-last part it started declining ..

Look at the JFT avionics deal..France screwed us up for a bigger deal in the MMRCA way before even it was decided who the final choice of the MMRCA was....

France even sold their latest M2k back in the mid 80's to the IAF even when we were operating the Mirage III's.

Now imagine us taking the rafale (limited like 1-2 squadron) putting billions in and IAF suddenly selecting the jet for 126 MMRCA for a bigger deal...

what then?

judging from the past they wouldve screwed us in the pursuit of a bigger deal...then what..

We'd be sitting here with a squadron of rafales with virtually no spares, no technological hand on the jet ,losing billions of dollars and us forum members going again

"they just dont learn from their mistakes"


While qualitatively china may not overwhelm what the west has to offer but look at the latest developments J-20,J-10B's the strides of chinese industry in the avionics region and it may come to many as a shocker but the truth is any sane person would've seen this rise coming and
i say it was a good decision for us to wait and relying on China an all weather friend instead of some back stabbing suppliers that will go to where the money takes em..

 

[Manticore]

Whats the broader picture? Immediate outstanding requirements ? 5 years from now? 10 years from now? 15 years from now?

What would iaf get by mmrca induction?at the most 0.25 generatioin leap over the j10b????
How would we address the issues post mmrca? Do we have the foresight to see the technological gap would be dramatically increased NOT by rafales induction in iaf... rather by PAKFA induction ..


Our engineers will have a chance to get trained in the j10b project ..our airforce would be able to have a compareable fighter in the shape of j10b... and probably would lead to a fifth generation affiliation aswell --having a good base would allow better absorbtion of fifth generation tech--- If the money is invested in the chinese option , this will help us in the long run --

What would a couple of rafale squadrons in PAF do when IAF gets fifth generation fighters -- then the members here would criticize paf yet again that why did they close the only possibility of a fifth gen fighter [ financially, politically] , paf will ever have just to get a couple of rafale squadrons , probably at the same price we could hopefully end up getting a fifth gen chinese fighter


Think of it , inhouse production and upgradation of all your fleet probably to a higher technical standard than the west would ever give us in the future on one hand --or-- extremely unaffordable high costs of upgradation most probably without ToT , that too after the bill gets passed by the politicians of the foreign country

I would rather side up with china -- let our engineers learn ... gradually get the infrastructure built in pakistan with the aim of absorbing 5th generation tech from china ---

Getting a couple of rafale squadrons was a good pov 5 years back..BEFORE THE FLIGHTS OF PAKFA AND JXX.. if paf has less money it should use it on a couple of single engined fifth generation fighter dquadrons rather than getting some costly western 4.5 generation fighters in a knee jerk response to india

A fifth gen fighter would be the actual morale booster and capability enhancer that the paf can practically think of in the future-- the short term/midterm strategies being jft [blks] , f16 and j10b
--
If our engineers cant get into a fifth gen project , If our airforce cant manage to induct a fifth gen chinese fighter , then , i would consider our paf to have let us down

iaf getting fifth generation fighters would dramatically blunt paf's punch.. should we get lavish flashy western 4.5 gen fighters , winning the battle but essentially losing the war?

Buying 2 types of western systems to sabotage indian procurements is a luxury that only a country with good economy can do -- right now we should tread intelligently by having comparable systems in EVERY category / generation without having an economic collapse in the process

 

[Mav3rick]

Hello, did I not point out go for Rafales and upgrade current F-16s IF NOT then PROCURE THOSE 77 F-16s because you have no BETTER SUPERIOR option on hands. Did other seniors not tell us both French and US weapons-systems-Jets are sanction prone BUT you have no other option literally. Think about it IF PAF had gone for 2 squadrons of Rafales and avionics for 3-4 Squadrons of JFTs than you would have seen the face of iaf. It is always Pakistan that goes to test and gets ready for something better and then leaves in the middle and it is hindustan that takes it away from you because they know it, remember those old news PAF is interested in Rafale and tested it a zillion times here Today iaf officially made a deal with Dassault smacked us once again.

Sometimes I wonder why we need fighter jets anyway...........we should invest heavily in stealth UCAV & UCSV systems and satellites.

 

[DrSomnath999]

Look at the JFT avionics deal..France screwed us up for a bigger deal in the MMRCA way before even it was decided who the final choice of the MMRCA was....

France even sold their latest M2k back in the mid 80's to the IAF even when we were operating the Mirage III's.

Now imagine us taking the rafale (limited like 1-2 squadron) putting billions in and IAF suddenly selecting the jet for 126 MMRCA deal for a bigger deal...
what then?
judging from the past they wouldve screwed us in the pursuit of a bigger deal...then what..

We'd be sitting here with a squadron of rafales with virtually no spares, no technological hand on the jet ,losing billions of dollars and us forum members going again

"they just dont learn from their mistakes"

sorry to intevene but i couldnt resist myself.
Tell u what india would never had bought rafale if Pakistan had purchased rafale earlear ,simple example is F16 did india purchased it for MMRCA tell me ??? no india wont procure any thing strategic platform which pakistan have for security reasons.

France didnt screwed pakistan ,but india tempted france to dump pakistan as it has more profit to sell Rafale to india ,through this deal it could endorsed it to other countries like brazil/UAE to buy it,which is more profitable than selling avionics & missiles to pakistan (simple common sense)

 

[abdulbarijan]

sorry to intevene but i couldnt resist myself.
Tell u what india would never had bought rafale if Pakistan had purchased rafale earlear ,simple example is F16 did india purchased it for MMRCA tell me ??? no india wont procure any thing strategic platform which pakistan have for security reasons.

France didnt screwed pakistan ,but india tempted france to dump pakistan as it has more profit to sell Rafale to india ,through this deal it could endorsed it to other countries like brazil/UAE to buy it,which is more profitable than selling avionics & missiles to pakistan (simple common sense)

I was under the impression that the USA platforms for MMRCA wern't selected because of


- the strings from the USA that come attached with them

- the Indian requirements for TOT

-the competitors (likes of rafale,EF-2000 and Gripen involved)


However if IAF was so in to the USA technology it coulve simply picked up the
F-18 Superhornets but it didn't and the reasons are the same...

No doubt the MMRCA deal was having its political games of shutting down westren markets to PAF but it wasn't all about it..it was also about your own requirements and infact your requirements should and i trust they were IAF's top priority..

Yeah they got tempted and screwed us twice...u say say dump... I'll say screw cuz Pakistan was at the receiving end... If India was at the receiving end of such a situation you would consider it screwing as well ....

 

[DrSomnath999]

Whats the broader picture? Immediate outstanding requirements ? 5 years from now? 10 years from now? 15 years from now?

What would iaf get by mmrca induction?at the most 0.25 generatioin leap over the j10b????
How would we address the issues post mmrca? Do we have the foresight to see the technological gap would be dramatically increased NOT by rafales induction in iaf... rather by PAKFA induction ..


Our engineers will have a chance to get trained in the j10b project ... and probably would lead to a fifth generation affiliation aswell --having a good base would allow better absorbtion of fifth generation tech--- If the money is invested in the chinese option , this will help us in the long run -- What would a couple of rafale squadrons in PAF do when IAF gets fifth generation fighters -- then the members here would criticize paf yet again that why did they close the only possibility of a fifth gen fighter [ financially, politically] , paf will ever have just to get a couple of rafale squadrons , probably at the same price we could hopefully end up getting a fifth gen chinese fighter

Bro, 1st of alll tell me

will the americans /russians even the chinese throw away their 4th or 4.5 gen fighter jets if they procure 5th gen or 6th gen jet??

ans is NO ,see stealth jet is designed for a specific role & has some limitations it cannot completely do the multirole capabilty of 4th or 4.5 gen fighter.


thats why countries like US ,russia ,china & also india would have in their inventory 5th gen jet & also 4.5 gen fighter.

 

[DrSomnath999]

I was under the impression that the USA platforms for MMRCA wern't selected because of


- the strings from the USA that come attached with them

- the Indian requirements for TOT

-the competitors (likes of rafale,EF-2000 and Gripen involved)

well those are accessory
1) strings : if that the case india wouldnt procure any weapons from US then why are we buying P8I ,Apaches

2)ToT: it's part of the deal & US was ready to give full ToT

3)competitors: well u forgot Mig 35 also but did we chose it despite having close relationship with them ??? no

However if IAF was so in to the USA technology it coulve simply picked up the
F-18 Superhornets but it didn't and the reasons are the same...

no becoz it didnt fullfill the requiremnets of MMRCA but it could have won .WHY F18 even they have offered F35 were we interested??? NO

Yeah they got tempted and screwed us twice...u say say dump... I'll say screw cuz Pakistan was at the receiving end... If India was at the receiving end of such a situation you would consider it screwing as well ....

well what was the reason ??? more profit

Do u know rafale was intially rejected by INdia for MMRCA ,but why did they chose it ???? any guess

 

[abdulbarijan]

well those are accessory
1) strings : if that the case india wouldnt procure any weapons from US then why are we buying P8I ,Apaches

2)ToT: it's part of the deal & US was ready to give full ToT

3)competitors: well u forgot Mig 35 also but did we chose it despite having close relationship with them ??? no

no becoz it didnt fullfill the requiremnets of MMRCA but it could have won .WHY F18 even they have offered F35 were we interested??? NO


well what was the reason ??? more profit

Do u know rafale was intially rejected by INdia for MMRCA ,but why did they chose it ???? any guess

So I take your point as true but all this still points to the fact that France will go for more profit and India will always be able to offer more profit...and in doing so going for something such as the rafale was not good for us...

Ok guys lets get back at Thread Topic, Just one last thing, india did order C-17s, C-130J, P-8 Poseidon they are superior nothing else to brag about; strings attached these platforms are also sanction prone towards certain nations but they are going to be part of indian air-naval force.

will do

 

[Luftwaffe]

I was under the impression that the USA platforms for MMRCA wern't selected because of


- the strings from the USA that come attached with them

- the Indian requirements for TOT

-the competitors (likes of rafale,EF-2000 and Gripen involved)


However if IAF was so in to the USA technology it coulve simply picked up the
F-18 Superhornets but it didn't and the reasons are the same...

No doubt the MMRCA deal was having its political games of shutting down westren markets to PAF but it wasn't all about it..it was also about your own requirements and infact your requirements should and i trust they were IAF's top priority..

Yeah they got tempted and screwed us twice...u say say dump... I'll say screw cuz Pakistan was at the receiving end... If India was at the receiving end of such a situation you would consider it screwing as well ....

Ok guys lets get back at Thread Topic, Just one last thing, india did order C-17s, C-130J, P-8 Poseidon they are superior nothing else to brag about; strings attached these platforms are also sanction prone towards certain nations but they are going to be part of indian air-naval force.

 

[DARKY]

It's a great way for you to twist the facts. U mention PT 01 of j-10B is using AL-31FN engine. Why didn't you mention PT 03 of J-10B is run by WS -10?

If you bother to read the link provided , it mention it's AL-31FN which can only used on J-10 becos it has the Chinese specification of modifying the gearbox below. So tell me where do new J-11B, J-11BS and J-15 aircraft get their engine? Drop from sky? China flanker fleet is getting bigger and bigger.
Now the Russian come back with an better offer for J-10A engine and Russia / china relation is at all time high. Why would china be afraid of sanction in long term?
Since J-11 is using twin engine and is causing consider demand on domestic engine supply and Russia is offering a good deal why shall China reject?

On JF-17, haven you Indian eat enough humble pie regarding Rd-93 sanction? Russia deals with china and not Pakistan. Russia values china relationship so much it can ignore India futile call to stop the RD-93 engines re export to PAF. Until now u Indian still has not give up this claim? If Russia really care abt India, RD-93 engine export will long ago be blocked. Please accept the reality. Russia values china more than India. This is a hard fact.

Russians have supplied China with low quality engines.. don't try to cover up the facts... or you want me to post the incidents which have occurred with Al-31 on J-10A.... or was it the Chinese modification which caused the incidents.

Now according to you Chinese Engine manufacturers are not able to meet their domestic demand for Turbo-fans... how do you expect it to meet the demands of a foreign customer... the all time high relations with Russia couldn't even get you the arrestor cables for a dummy carrier while they send one of their best Nuclear attack submarines on a lease to India.... Wonder how high it gets during crisis situations.

Wonder whom would Russia value much when more than half of their weapon exports are at stake... The fact is that the sale was blocked in the past... when JF-17 was taking baby steps.. what would China do If its blocked during crisis situations ?

 

[DARKY]

On one hand you are accepting that Chinese are producing engines for bigger planes like J-11 and in the same breath you are trying prove that WS-13 is no where on the scene. FYI, test flights are already taking place in China with this engine. I am sick of this typical Indian mindset about bringing future scenario in the debate and start discussing things accordingly neglecting the present realities on ground.

Really, and I am certain that it only happened in media else i haven't seen any delay in the project due to engine issue. Indians went to Moscow with hopes that Russians would deny re-export of engines to Pakistan but what happened is a history... live with it.

J-11 is a twin engine plane.. so If one engine shuts off the other can be used to land it safely... JF-17 can only have one engine on it... there's a reason why western engines on single engine planes have been so successful over the years... there are many things which have to be considered during the conflict situations... RD-93 or any Chinese engine would require more servicing than in between sorties and drink up much fuel... which is obvious due to poor T/W ratio in comparison to engines of F-16 which would require even less servicing... while in cases of French M2K and Rafale.. the pilots have been reported taking off without servicing saving much time between sorties and flying longer on same amount of fuel.. due to much-much better T/W ratio.

We can only think of future scenarios while considering PAF since at present its naked without much to offer against the huge fleet of IAF.

No my friend contrary to your surprises It did happen in past not only in Indian media but this very forum of yours.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/pakistan-air-force/64342-russia-blocks-sale-engines-sino-pak-fighter-jets.html
The sales were blocked the production was made on initial orders... and care to point out how many JF-17s did they produce in 2010.

I am only pointing that the engine is not a very good one and the sales have been stopped in past... If you consider the Chinese basket its even worse than what Americans had to offer.