JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[MastanKhan]

Well finally some good ol members are here so some quality posts soo far (ignoring the ones off topic ofcourse)

Anyways there was debate of how we shouldve opted for Rafales and all ...and that France had its door opened for us in the 90's...

No doubt we missed the Mirage 2000 opportunity back in the 90's but decisions such as that are not based simply on the fact that they were good to us in the past AFAIK...Its really easy for us to sit here in the present and criticize an old decisions but we are not in my opinion considering the things PAF had to consider before deciding to avail or reject the M2k.....


-Reservations for old customers:-
Normally one would have reservations for an older customer like Russia has for India etc.
However look at the French we were operating Mirages in the 70's and they started selling IAF a competitor of their customer with their latest technology in the mid 80's.

-Technology to be sold to PAF:-
M2k no doubt is an amazing plane but does any one have the knowledge of what they were willing to supply..The biggest area I know where PAF lacked in the late 90's was the BVR capability..were the French agreed to supply us with that??

-Future implications:-
with us sanctioned would we go for a plane that itself is sanction prone??

-Economical conditions:-
With Pakistan pouring huge amounts of money in the 90's for our nuclear programme could we afford to have an entire new platform with us (the cost of the platform +spares +maintenance and all the other costs)


-The future arrival of Super 7
You have a plane which you in future could modify to your needs,it will be cost effective and benefit us R&D wise.

Hi,


The french desperately wanted pakistan to buy the M2K---already a mirage operator--it was thought a natural progression----. Pakistan went for the number 1 fighter----and left the number 2 open for grabs----. Basically there was no difference between the number 1 and number 2---pretty much the same as the F86 sabre and the Gnat---.

By going for the number 2 Paf would have shut the door on india getting the best european fighter---india could never get the american fighter in the 80's 90's----. They could have had the 36 or 72 f16's----.

Just tunnel vision---just narrow thinking---this air force was so pathetic that it didnot even show up during the kargil crisis---. The stories about sanctions are SOB STORIES ( DUKHI KAHANI ).

Look at what india has done---tried to close the door by going with Rafale----taking away the french submarine deal and the jf17 weapons and electronic package plus delaying our jf 17 program by another 5 years---.

 

[MastanKhan]

You said that after 9/11 Pakistan had so much money that it did not know what to do with it. I've asked you to give a single source to confirm it a number of times and the best you can come up with is stories about fleas and elephants.
Please stop stating your nonesense views as fact. Some other gems that you have shared with us is that Pakistanis lack intelligence and Pakistanis lack the balls to talk to white people. O another one was that Pakistan was stupid not to snap up 3 squadrons of F-18'S within 2 years of 9/11 ---- With 'technical and strategic knowledge' like that topped up with stories about flees in elephants ears ---- I think I may just be capable of taking your challenge

Sir,

God almighty---you are thick---not all defence deals are made with absorbing technical knowledge right away---a lots of major defence deals are made for FORCE PROJECTION---getting the populace emotionally involved in the item in question---changing the mindset of the populace---changing the image of america in pakistan.

Khudaya---who needs enemies for pakistan when it own children are chopping up the roots------have you people seen the weapons purchase by the middle east nations.

PAF has fooled itself and fooled the nation in keeping by the idea of minimum deterence. Minimum deterences have never worked.

Have you put any technical post yet---with your own analysis---why it was such and how should it be----.

Anybody over here thinks---that if we had 2 sqdrn's of F16's sitting on our tarmacs within 3 to 6 months of us giving bases to the u s---you would have thought of the americans differently---or how how 2-3 sqdrn's of F18's shoved down our throats by the americans in the first two years.

I haven't said it recently---but here it is again---there are two fools joined at the hips in this relationship---one is pakistan---but an equally bigger fool is the americans---.

Pakistan cannot tell what is good for it even if its life depends on it----the americans get into ' I am stupid mode ' when they deal with pakistan.

 

[MastanKhan]

1. Bad economy in my argument is not excuse but a reason for current state of PAF and as far as the war is concerned there are other things which will also count like nuclear threshold, MAD, Ballistic missiles etc. So, i don't think that coming. As i said, Indians would be stupid to attack us when we have Zardari and co running this country.

2. Don't you think it is better to have JF-17's capabilities boasted till Rafale came operational than going for a dangerous road on relying on expensive hi-tech foreign fighters which can came under sanctions right in middle of war? Remember F-16's in 1990's?

3. We acquired all technical capabilities plus 18 Block-52 (which according to MK has changed the air combat in sub-continent) so what else could have been done. In presence of existing fleet of 32 F-16s going for another platform like Rafale would have been not so wise... so it was a better deal to get 60+ F-16's on par with Block-50 standards equipped with latest weapon and sensor suites.

4. Indeed Jf-17 would face high-tech Indian planes in 'defensive' war ... But that would be with AEW backing and having support of SAM and AAA batteries. Air combat is a 'little' more complex than what it is being perceived here.

5. Certainly, JF-17 doesn't provide the punch (in its current form) as it was NOT intended for that role (air power projection). That will only possible if PAF can secure more F-16's along with FC-20.

Hi,

See----see what the deployment of 18 BLK 52's have done----now can you imagine if the paf had gone for a 100 of these in 2002 and asked delivery within 2---3 years on fast track----.

We would have had a peace deal with india by now---. That is what a major weapons purchase has to do---amraam 120 is a game changer.

Paf fcuked up at that time----its analysis stated that the peace deal with india is inevitable---that is why no reason to waste the money.

The stupid didnot realize that it was due to the open fighter aircraft market for pakistan, that india realized, it is futile to keep on fighting pakistan---because paf will be back at full strength---but when they saw paf faltering being wishy washy, india went back to doing what it does.

In war timing is every thing----. Napoleon lost his major battle because his flank delayed its onslaught by one minute---when you lose your moment---you lose your battles.

JF 17 still doesnot have a BVR in 2012---it will be another 3--5 years from now. If paf had played its hand right---we would have had BLK 52's and aim 120's between 2004---2006---.

Throug out all this discussion---I see that you people ave no concept of TIME.

 

[Storm Force]

In response to Blain 2

With respect SIR

The economy that PAF is competing with is near $2 trillion not ( $1 trillion a fig india achieved way back in 2006)

F16 is a great combat proven war plane with massive market for spares and great PAF experience. AND THE PLANE is a tremendous machine.

BUT i can gurantee that in war against india the PAF and the gop will not get spares. The indian lobby and indian business business men in washington together with the jewish lobby give india great sway in WASHINGTON & PENTAGON.

This miscalulation of the HUGE SHIFT in USA attitude towards india in the last 10 years has been grossly miscalculated.

Some people just do not undetstand the quantum shift in geo politics in south asia.

THIS is Why MASTAN KHAN is suggesting mirage 2000 or rafale from 2006 would have been a more safer bet.

 

[sancho]

By going for the number 2 Paf would have shut the door on india getting the best european fighter---india could never get the american fighter in the 80's 90's----. They could have had the 36 or 72 f16's----.

That's a very interesting point, although it has nothing to do with JF 17 or buying a better fighter. However, from a political / strategical point of view, that move in that time might have changed some things. Having the support of US and France (2 political heavyweights), would have left India only with Russia and to some extend Israel as a support and supplier for arms. India back then afaik was interested in Swedish fighters as well, but the foreign sale policies of Sweden stopped things.

Just tunnel vision---just narrow thinking---this air force was so pathetic that it didnot even show up during the kargil crisis---.

But then this again?

No BVR capability, clear numerical disadvantage and the prospect to increase a small war, to a full fledged war and you really believe there were no other reasons than the sanctions for not intervening?

 

[soul hacker]

beyty and the beast

 

[Storm Force]

these are not bad either from same angle

near future paf

 

[MastanKhan]

That's a very interesting point, although it has nothing to do with JF 17 or buying a better fighter. However, from a political / strategical point of view, that move in that time might have changed some things. Having the support of US and France (2 political heavyweights), would have left India only with Russia and to some extend Israel as a support and supplier for arms. India back then afaik was interested in Swedish fighters as well, but the foreign sale policies of Sweden stopped things.




But then this again?

No BVR capability, clear numerical disadvantage and the prospect to increase a small war, to a full fledged war and you really believe there were no other reasons than the sanctions for not intervening?

Hi,

The purchase of M2K by paf in the 90's was basically sabotaged---. The purchase of a major weapons system must never be stopped due to Bribe allegations or similiar stuff---if the item in question is capable---. It takes too much time to decide in buying it. That would have put paf close to par with iaf.

 

[Storm Force]

THE ULTIMATE NEMISIS

 

[rockstarIN]

That's a very interesting point, although it has nothing to do with JF 17 or buying a better fighter. However, from a political / strategical point of view, that move in that time might have changed some things. Having the support of US and France (2 political heavyweights), would have left India only with Russia and to some extend Israel as a support and supplier for arms. India back then afaik was interested in Swedish fighters as well, but the foreign sale policies of Sweden stopped things.

Just to add, this was the reason why Indian MoD was not okay with IAF's request for more (130+) proven M2Ks and went for MRCA competition. From the begining of MRCA competition IAF was effective to block even Gripen to PAF.

 

[DARKY]

Clearly, your lack of knowledge is appalling. I bet you don't even know what is WS-10. Becos yr era of china is still believed to be in the 90'. You want to talk abt engines? Go and update on yr knowledge of Chinese engine before you try to beat me.

All the latest J-11B coming out are using domestic engine. If Russian wants to stop selling, please go ahead. I forget to mention. Even the latest prototype of j-10B is running a domestic WS-10. How is. Chinese frontline aircraft are going to stop with 100% indignenuous? You clearly had no idea what r u talking abt?

Another thing I want to mention. There are no news of engine sanction for the J-10 sold to Pakistan. Don't u find it surprised unlike the JF-17 saga which the sanction of RD-93 is keep circulating...

I find it amused you are the last so called Pakistanis to knOw this piece of news..

Pakistan J-10 can have the option of flying WS-10 or reuse AL-31F. If Russian refuse to sell the. It will left with only the Chinese engine option but I doubt Russian is that stupid to refuse the engine sales.

Check out this link I post. It shows what kind of amazing things Chinese do to Russia AL-31F engines. Something, Russia can't even do it.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...cations-russian-salyut-al-31f-jet-engine.html

I am surprised there is not much response from this news from former members here. That's why mastankhan can miss such things abt china progress....

Don't talk nonsense here.

China has acquired Russian engines to the amount of $500 million - News - Russian Aviation - RUAVIATION.COM

123 is not a small number by any imagination.... I can name at least half a dozen Russian Engines.. like.

Al-41
Al-31FN-M2/3
Item 117
Al-31FN
Item 117C
Item 129
Type 30
RD-33

Which China can only dream of.. even the 1st PTs of J-10B and J-11B flew with Russian Al-31FN engines.. what are you trying to prove here.... the PAF going for RD-93 over WS-13 Itself shows the status of Chinese turbofan industry.

RD-93 was being stopped from sale by Russia due to Indian lobbying in peace time.. now with the poor TBO... and servicebility issues due you expect the Russians to do the same in case of a war with India.

In IAF they keep spare RD-33 engines since its TBO is very low at 500 hours and the Mig 29 is designed as such that they change the whole engine in no time.... can PAF be assured of RD-93 supplies in war time so that say all 100 or so JF-17s are flying without any issues of spare engines or engine parts... or an over haul facility where they can repair engine without Russian help.

 

[Donatello]

My fellow PDF brethren,

Show respect to senior members. They are senior in both age and experience. When i joined PDF back in 2009, i was all jingoistic as well. But having lived and studied abroad, my perspective has totally changed. I believe, we as Pakistanis go for knee-jerk reaction all too often. Take Mastan Khan's posts as a critique from outside. Learn to take on critics in a positive and constructive way. What is past, is past. But we can no longer afford similar blunders in the future.


TAC has been extremely disrespectful to Mastan Khan, but what can i say. MODs should take note. New members should be taught a lesson, or they will eventually become trolls.



I believe fully in the JF-17 program, but my reservations lie with the lack of quantity of Air to Air weaponary it can carry. More fuel or more weapons? Tough call. I hope PAF increases number of hardpoints on JF-17 in the future.

JF-17 is perfect for a Indian Airforce nightmare armed with even the latest Mig 29 SMT and Mirage 2000 Dash standards. However, that is no longer the enemy facing Pakistan. It is SU30MKI and the Rafale. PAF needs to bridge gap fast with a medium-heavy fighter.

 

[Storm Force]

If the first 100 THUNDERS are being designed to be powered by RUSSIAN ENGINES that this is a serious RISK THAT PAF has taken.

With holding of spares to both china & pakistan from russia is more than remote and bordering on gross negligence on PAF planners.

YOUR MAINSTAY FIGHTER IS powered by your enemies no1 ally and strategic partner.

WHERES CHINA, S engines

 

[Storm Force]

IF THE PAKISTANIS are serious about indengious fighter projects long term ( ie next 20 years) they need to invest in a engine project & multi mode radar project and air to air missles on pak origin.

Take the knock backs and the failures YOU WIL GET THERE eventually.

At this moment i do not see this hand in hand with JFT project.

LCA is taking for ever but the indians have a engine project (kavari running along side it and the ASTRA bvr missles)

 

[Dazzler]

THE ULTIMATE NEMISIS

What an amazing change! Are you really Storm Force?? Good for a change

On topic though, a request to all members, please keep the discussion on jf-17 in this thread because i sense MODs are keeping a close eye on us.