JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 4]

[Manticore]

^it is a photoshop

 

[Manticore]

????????????_???

This year's Zhuhai Air Show, a daily flight demonstrations intensive audience enthralled. Among them, the first major international air show flight demonstration on the mystery of the "Fierce Dragon" fighter, the lithe figure of a single solo a beautiful landscape. Reporter learned yesterday from China Aviation Industry Group, and Pakistan last year reached 42, $ 1,000,000,000, after a large single, Xiaolong fighter has caused Bangladesh, Nigeria, Egypt, Peru, the military's attention, the new year is likely to be announced overseas orders.

Pakistan Joint exhibition back home Xiaolong

Xiaolong flight performance of 70-degree off the degree Yang kicked off a series of diving, snake-like twist, roll, low-inverted highly difficult movements attracted the audience exclaimed again and again. A few minutes before flying in formation with the F-10 different dress, Xiaolong fighters did not spray the familiar Chinese Air Force "August" logo, but wearing a silver shirt and Xingyue Pakistan Air Force logo.

As a single, third-generation single-seat lightweight fighter, Xiaolong Central Aviation Industry and Pakistan jointly developed the Air Force.

Pakistan out of the aircraft, pilots, China set up the stage to start business negotiations, China and Pakistan jointly explore the international market model. The three arrived in Zhuhai, Xiaolong fighters, all from the Pakistan Air Force, newly established this year, the 26th squadron, has served six months in the Pakistan Air Force normal. Pakistan will Xiaolong named "JF-17", which means Joint Fighter, the Joint aircraft, jointly developed by China and Pakistan contains meaning.

The three fighter planes carrying weapons to do a static display, and the other two take turns flying performances, performing one to two a day, every 7 minutes.

It is worth mentioning that the three went to Zhuhai Xiaolong aircraft successfully completed in 3 days, nearly 5,000 km range of the continuous transition flight, flying over the Karakoram mountains and vast desert of Xinjiang, another strong evidence of its good performance and continuous operational capability.

Xiaolong whole machine, including wingtip missile hardpoints, including a total of 7, total external capacity of 3,600 kg, can plug a variety of space missions - air, air - ground weapon, such as the Short Range missiles, medium-range BVR missiles, anti-ship missiles, anti-radiation missiles, electronic warfare pods and so on, the combat radius of 1,000 km 2 and a half hours of empty time and the maximum altitude of 16,000 meters, 380 meters from the takeoff roll, all that This aircraft has outstanding mobile operations.

Development for developing countries

AVIC total area of 8,000 square meters of exhibition halls, Xiaolong is undoubtedly the most popular exhibits. Air Show kicked off the first morning, Xiaolong booth to dial-up wave of the body by a foreign military uniform and surrounded by military representatives.

Aviation Technology Import and Export Corporation, Vice President Zeng told reporters that favored Xiaolong fundamental reason is that the air show, which is a dedicated fighter for the advanced developing countries. "Second-generation combat aircraft than the fundamental improvement to the U.S. F-16 fighter early models of the advanced level, the price is not expensive, affordable in developing countries, third-generation fighter."

Meet the needs of a market-oriented mechanism for the user, is the biggest characteristic of the development of Xiaolong.

Xiaolong Pakistan to take "joint investments, sharing technology, sharing of benefits" the development model, has also established a production line in Pakistan. "Intellectual Property Rights owned entirely by China, will take the way to Pakistan gradual transfer of technology R & D costs to recover." Zeng stressed.

Earlier, the Pakistani military said in public that Pakistan Air Force is expected to demand Xiaolong at least 150 or more, even up to 250. Pakistan Air Force in the aircraft industry and the joint participation in international exhibitions, the show's international market expansion Xiaolong overall development.

According to the order signed last year with Pakistan, Xiaolong stand-alone price of about $ 24,000,000. The new F-16 stand-alone price of about 4,000 million U.S. dollars, "Super Hornet" priced at approximately $ 50,000,000, "gust" Price is more than 60 million U.S. dollars. In contrast, "Fierce Dragon" in the air combat capability, sea, ground attack capability and other key indicators of the gap with the West is not the main fighters, cost advantage is obvious.

The aircraft industry also said it would seek full domestic orders Xiaolong, China's air force has expressed concern on Xiaolong.

My share of fifth in the world of international aircraft

With Xiaolong, Falcon, K8, and other new aircraft orders from overseas growth, exports of Chinese fighter in international market share has risen to fifth in the world, behind the United States, Russia, France, the United Kingdom after. However, compared with the developed countries, China exports less than a heavyweight fighter, especially in China, the U.S. share of exports is equivalent to 7 to 8 times.

"We have developed a series of Xiaolong ambitious development plans, according to market demand will increase two-seater aircraft and air refueling capabilities, improve Xiaolong-to-ground attack capabilities and combat radius." CATIC Vice President, Pei said.

It is understood that the engine Xiaolong also faced the kinds of problems, now all use the Russian RD-93 engines. In this regard, Li Pei stressed that China has once again confirmed that the Russian government, exports of Pakistan has no problem with the engine, the relevant agreements authorized by the Russian government will continue.

He also said that if the performance meets the requirements, Xiaolong fighter will also consider the use of domestic engine, but as a single fighter aircraft, the engine must be very mature and reliable, the Air does not take even 1% of the risk.

 

[Manticore]

This official explained that as Pakistan is sharing in the full spectrum of production, usage and sales of the JF-17, that it therefore requires the twin seat version to fully exploit this aircraft. The twin seat version will be used to support training missions and will also be developed into a dedicated attack model.
International Assessment and Strategy Center > Research > Chinese Dimensions of the 2007 Dubai Airshow

 

[Black Widow]

Lol Stealth version of JF17 with Internal bay and twin engine, looks like some one is day dreaming.... Do you have any idea how much work it needed to bring up your dream machine.

It will be total new plane, You have to start from design phase, It won't be JF17 Block N, but entirely new plane...
Original Post By Black Widow

It is possible to make it stealthier and LO.
as stealthy as other 5th gen , is close to impossible without having internal weapons bays, which would require a whole new airframe.

But we will be reducing the RCS, making it stealthier.

Precisely this is what I am saying, You can Introduce RCS reduction program but not make JF17 Stealth.. Somewhere I read "The weapon station in fighter plane contribute 3-4 meter2 (3-4 sqm) RCS in any fighter plane". The example was given for F16, F16 in clean config has Frontal RCS of 1Sqm, while fully loaded its RCS is 3-4 Sqm..

JF17 Internal Bay : How many BVR missile a small plane like JF17 can carry?? 2 or 3?? 2 or 3 BVR can't guarentee a kill...

Two more F-15s joined the pursuit, and a total of 10 air-to-air missiles were fired at the MiG-25s, although none reached them, My point here is simple, Its difficult to kill same generation fighter plane in one shot...


The Idea of Semi-Stealth or quasi stealth is obsolete, this is why F15 silent eagle plan was dropped... In next 10 years All country will get High power AESA, which can track 3-4 Sqm object from 200+ Km..

Now the focus should be on counter measurement rather than Reducing visibility of Aircrafts...

Summary: JF17 RCS reduction program will not add any value... Either you own a stealth (RCS less than .01Sqm or have better countermeasure )

 

[Silk]

Lol Stealth version of JF17 with Internal bay and twin engine, looks like some one is day dreaming.... Do you have any idea how much work it needed to bring up your dream machine.

It will be total new plane, You have to start from design phase, It won't be JF17 Block N, but entirely new plane...
Original Post By Black Widow



Precisely this is what I am saying, You can Introduce RCS reduction program but not make JF17 Stealth.. Somewhere I read "The weapon station in fighter plane contribute 3-4 meter2 (3-4 sqm) RCS in any fighter plane". The example was given for F16, F16 in clean config has Frontal RCS of 1Sqm, while fully loaded its RCS is 3-4 Sqm..

JF17 Internal Bay : How many BVR missile a small plane like JF17 can carry?? 2 or 3?? 2 or 3 BVR can't guarentee a kill...

Two more F-15s joined the pursuit, and a total of 10 air-to-air missiles were fired at the MiG-25s, although none reached them, My point here is simple, Its difficult to kill same generation fighter plane in one shot...


The Idea of Semi-Stealth or quasi stealth is obsolete, this is why F15 silent eagle plan was dropped... In next 10 years All country will get High power AESA, which can track 3-4 Sqm object from 200+ Km..

Now the focus should be on counter measurement rather than Reducing visibility of Aircrafts...

Summary: JF17 RCS reduction program will not add any value... Either you own a stealth (RCS less than .01Sqm or have better countermeasure )

I really like positive and constructive posts that do not show any sign of prejudice.

 

[muse]

Well everybody has their own bias, but I do agree that some here simply do not make the effort to present their point with seriousness, they instead mask their insecurity by offering offense

 

[muse]

I think we should trust CATIC to take care of any sales effort -- because i think a combat fighter system is a very complex sale, not just technically but because of the inherent geo-strategic implications -- Pakistan needs to focus on smaller systems and sub-systems and especially on munitions, guns, ammunition, varieties of bombs and artillery

 

[VelocuR]

Jf-17 thunder is a low cost multi-role fighter jet jointly developed by Pakistan and China. It is currently operated by Pakistan Airforce. Currently, two squadrons have been deployed. Pakistan is expected to have over 90 thunders by the end of 2011. Pakistan is also co-producing the aircraft in its developing aviation industry.

Pakistan and China have also signed Memorandum of Understanding to develop stealthy version of air combat plane.


It is better to develop ourselves than importing foreign planes (i.e more F-16s) slow process. 90 Thunders is a huge number, make sure the testing phase must pass all the process in to meet all standards!

 

[araz]

Jf-17 thunder is a low cost multi-role fighter jet jointly developed by Pakistan and China. It is currently operated by Pakistan Airforce. Currently, two squadrons have been deployed. Pakistan is expected to have over 90 thunders by the end of 2011. Pakistan is also co-producing the aircraft in its developing aviation industry.

Pakistan and China have also signed Memorandum of Understanding to develop stealthy version of air combat plane.


It is better to develop ourselves than importing foreign planes (i.e more F-16s) slow process. 90 Thunders is a huge number, make sure the testing phase must pass all the process in to meet all standards!

Please avoid opening new threads for information that already has a assigned thread.
MODS please take action and merge with JF17 thread.
Araz

 

[bc040400065]

Lol Stealth version of JF17 with Internal bay and twin engine, looks like some one is day dreaming.... Do you have any idea how much work it needed to bring up your dream machine.

It will be total new plane, You have to start from design phase, It won't be JF17 Block N, but entirely new plane...
Original Post By Black Widow



Precisely this is what I am saying, You can Introduce RCS reduction program but not make JF17 Stealth.. Somewhere I read "The weapon station in fighter plane contribute 3-4 meter2 (3-4 sqm) RCS in any fighter plane". The example was given for F16, F16 in clean config has Frontal RCS of 1Sqm, while fully loaded its RCS is 3-4 Sqm..

JF17 Internal Bay : How many BVR missile a small plane like JF17 can carry?? 2 or 3?? 2 or 3 BVR can't guarentee a kill...

Two more F-15s joined the pursuit, and a total of 10 air-to-air missiles were fired at the MiG-25s, although none reached them, My point here is simple, Its difficult to kill same generation fighter plane in one shot...


The Idea of Semi-Stealth or quasi stealth is obsolete, this is why F15 silent eagle plan was dropped... In next 10 years All country will get High power AESA, which can track 3-4 Sqm object from 200+ Km..

Now the focus should be on counter measurement rather than Reducing visibility of Aircrafts...

Summary: JF17 RCS reduction program will not add any value... Either you own a stealth (RCS less than .01Sqm or have better countermeasure )

Actually you are saying the same thing which i tried to but may be i was not clear enough in my post. There is no semi stealth or stealth if it carries weapons externally. and an aircraft small as JFT cann't have internal bays, So If they want to develop a stealth variant then they should better go for a twin engine version because that will give the aircraft some extra energy and some space to carry weapons inside some sort of internal bay, Then only it will have some stealth, otherwise no matter diamond shaped nose or cainted tail etc cann't help if it is carrying weapons externally.

I do agree that developing a twin engine version will require major changes and its not that easy.
On a side note I think it would have been much better to invest money on more advance version of JFT than buying those Blk 52's. But its past now.

 

[Silk]

My personal idea:

I do not think it is 2011 but end of 2012. It is december 2011 when we will have finished the 42 (+8 imported). Then the next batch will start. End of 2012 probably the block2 version. If block 2 has some big updates it needs 12 months of testing.

 

[Tempest II]

I don’t believe there is a 100% stealth plane out there. It is a matter of one plane being more stealthier than the other instead of “it is” or “it is not”. It is not a digital binary system where it is either 0 or 1 and nothing else.

We sit here and discuss/make 1-vs-1 comparisons forgetting that in reality the planes we are talking about are a single part of bigger and more complex systems. Systems which themselves are different from one another in how they are physically and their rules of operation. Two countries could have exactly the same fighter, but how they plan and will deploy them in a NETCENTRIC war could be very different. How that plane adds up to that country’s overall defence machinery, strategy and tactics could be different.

Who is attacking and who is defending means the capabilities and quantities of assets needed are very different. They use of ground and sea assets all come into play.

We have IRST systems that will work side-by-side with radar and make up for where radars are not up to the task. IR missiles are getting more range. I believe very soon (or maybe secretly some airforce has them already) that we will see MRAAMs that don’t require traditional radar at all.

The problem is if we work by looking at and trying to imitate and catch up with the USA we will always be behind. I.e. we are focusing of following in their footsteps. Have you ever considered that maybe the West publicize their military technology as a red herring? … … I.e. that they can feed you certain ideas as a way of them determining and influencing where you go next with your own military thinking and technologies?

If given all the resources to build our countries’ conventional defences/military, 98% of us will start chasing the path the US has already been or where the West is telling you will be the next big thing. Why let your enemy set the rules and choose the ground? … …

… … Thinking further, there is already electro/optical systems on pods (SNIPER, Damocles, LANTIRN, etc) that can indentify tanks on the ground at over 35NM = 65km. How many times is an F-22 bigger that a tank. Say 2 to 4 times depending on aspect. You could argue that with a bit of engineering (adaptation) these type of systems/technologies could pick a Raptor at 130 km or more. It will be in the sky with less clutter. What if you put a bigger lens? What if you mount such a system on the nose of a fighter? … … or chin mount it together with a traditional or EASA radar?

 

[monitor]

well if we can build a system to identify stealth plane in near future which will ruin the advantages of stealth technology then why Russia china India investing billion on stealth fighter plane ?

 

[Tempest II]

well if we can build a system to identify stealth plane in near future which will ruin the advantages of stealth technology then why Russia china India investing billion on stealth fighter plane ?

There was a time when the Mig-15 and the F-86 where the ultimate fighting machines ... ... there was a time when Mig-21s and the F-4s were the machines to fear. Be asured, some other technology will come and we will all race and go after it and stealth will be legacy or nothing to mention as it will be a standard feature on every plane. Being a jet was once celebrated, then supersonic ... ... swing-wing came and has gone. Technology will always advance. When all these technologies were new, the superpowers went for them - just like they are doing with VLO. They were not wrong - but they just have to move with the times. It is a matter of trying to stay ahead in a dynamic and changing environment. As they say, "If you are ahead AND DO NOT KEEP MOVING, you will be run over!" Stealth is not the last word in military aviation technology.

Sensor technology will always be critical ... ... what kind/type of sensor is the critical question. I like that you say the majors powers are investing in stealth ... ... THIS IS WHERE BANGLADESH NEEDS TO COME UP WITH SOME GAME CHANGING IDEA - something that negates stealth. Unfortunately any such technologies tend to need a wide and capable industrial and research base ... ... which unfortunately still leaves the pioneering to the same old "developed masters".

 

[abaseen99]

Chinese Avionics Advances Ripple Throughout Asia
By USMAN ANSARI
Published: 20 June 2011

ISLAMABAD - China's avionics industry is closing the gap with other avionics producers, with benefits flowing to Pakistan and new challenges emerging for the U.S.

Chinese aircraft are helping Pakistan maintain conventional deterrence toward India as New Delhi pursues cutting-edge technology to revamp its airpower. As a result, said Usman Shabbir, of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank, the new "JF-17 Block II [combat aircraft] may see a Chinese AESA [active electronically scanned array] radar along with an IRST [infrared search and track] sensor, and an even better ECM [electronic countermeasures] suite."

Wider advances by China's aviation industry would result in "greater use of composites to reduce the overall airframe weight" for the JF-17 Block II, and also a thrust vectoring control engine; though Shabbir conceded the latter "has never been officially confirmed."

Analyst Kaiser Tufail said an AESA radar is "the way to go," and that "all future [radar] acquisitions or retrofits would be AESA, whether mechanically scanned or phased-array type."

Tufail said the current JF-17 radar, a variant of which is fitted to the Chinese Chengdu J-10 combat jet, is an interim solution "because the [Pakistan Air Force] had been unable to find a radar vendor who could sell cutting-edge technology at an affordable price."

Tufail said Pakistan's acquisition of advanced Chinese avionics should not be seen through the prism of Indian programs, such as the Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft program. Rather, he said, it should be seen as Pakistan's effort to keep pace with modern weaponry.

And China benefits from its collaboration with Pakistan.

"Traditionally, the Chinese aviation industry has found an excellent test bed in the PAF, and their products have been, and can be, proven in ways that are not possible with [China's Air Force], due to limitations of comparative analysis in truly operational scenarios and with respect to Western equipment that PAF operates," he said.

As a result, a "Chinese AESA radar would, therefore, be a synergetic success in partnership with Pakistan," he said.

However, it is unknown whether the new JF-17 Block II radars are variants of those fitted to the improved J-10B. If that is the case, analyst and Chinese specialist Andrei Chang said the new radar is unlikely to be an AESA type.

"The phased-array radar testing on the J-10B is a passive model," he said.

Chang said he does not think the Chinese have developed "a useful AESA radar for the JF-17 and J-10B," but they could in the future.

"I know they are researching AESA radars, but it takes time," he said.

China's technological advances give potential adversaries cause for concern, Tufail said.

"As in many other fields like space and information technology, China is making a mark in major ways which impacts geostrategic and security issues," he said. "Technological developments like AESA radars would, thus, certainly have a bearing on the comfort levels of countries that have an adversarial relationship with China."

The potential threat posed by Chinese advances in avionics is an issue Carlo Kopp of the Air Power Australia think tank has tried to raise.

"Chinese technology is a mix of reverse-engineered Western and Russian designs, and some often very good indigenous ideas," he said. The danger this poses is clear.

"As the Chinese advance and proliferate these products, they are increasingly narrowing the range of environments in which Western air forces and navies can operate," Kopp said.

CHINESE DEFENSES
"Today, only the U.S. F-22A [stealth fighter] and B-2A [stealth bomber] can penetrate Chinese airspace with impunity," he said. "All other Western designs, including the intended F-35 [Joint Strike Fighter] and existing F/A-18E, would suffer prohibitive loss rates" to surface-to-air missiles, he said.

Kopp's opinion of the F-35 is perhaps surprising, but he said he believes China's investment in more maneuverable aircraft will expose severe weaknesses.

"The notion that having a good AESA [radar] can overcome kinematic performance limitations in a design is predicated on the idea that your missiles are 100 percent effective in long-range combat," he said. "The evidence shows otherwise for the AIM-120 AMRAAM."

The approach that says "let the missiles do the turning," rather than the aircraft, "is a mantra in the F-35 and F/A-18 camps," Kopp said. "Unfortunately, it is wishful thinking by folks promoting obsolete designs. The mathematics and physics of aerial combat do not support this proposition."

Therefore, the strategic impact of China's advances will be substantial and exacerbated by poor long-term decision-making by the U.S., Kopp said.

"As China wholly recapitalizes its fleets, and exports these products, there will be an inevitable strategic impact, as the U.S. has been reluctant to export the F-22, has chopped F-22 production funds, and has no new products in the pipeline capable of robustly surviving against top-end Chinese products in combat," he said.

Kopp also blames the reluctance by Washington to share high-technology weaponry with allies that could check China's advance.

He singles out Defense Secretary Robert Gates for making decisions that will produce "a dangerous long-term strategic environment in Asia as China introduces and proliferates advanced technology, and the U.S. chooses for ideological reasons to no longer invest in advanced air power."Chinese Avionics Advances Ripple Throughout Asia - Defense News