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JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

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taimi , im confident on the bvr aspect -- but the 60% bvr + deep penetration capabilty is the lacking aspect

i dont want the battlefeild to be us -- its will bring far more devastation in all our sectors - including human life

if j10b doesnt become upto our expectations in the next 1-2 years-- i hope our leaders can foresee the situation and get alternative aircrafts -- before wasting another 5 years --[ i sincerely hope that im wrong -- otherwise , our missile delivery systems will see action quite early in the war-- and i hope it never comes to that point]

Sir
Rest assured PAF has a plan Band plan C for all eventualities. People need to have faith in the professionals.You must remember that every avian sitting in an outdated plane is risking his life for our motherland. So it is in their interest to ensure that they have the best possible equipment.This obviously requires money and stability.
Araz
 
to add to what Sir Araz say:
JF 17 is indegenious project and therefore it have no liabilities.
Because of open structure it can be upgraded as required, this means that PAF can keep on using thee birds as long as they wish to by keeping it upgraded with latest developments.
It is a maintainance friendly, cost effective plane. exactly what is required by low budget airforce like ours.
What use are the Su30 to us if we can keep them flying for only one third of the time as we can do with the JF (see the maintainance time and cost data off Su serise)
Again due the acceptance of large number of modification, the plane hold a special place in export market as it can be very much customised built as per customer requirment.
It is BVR. we have seen what the west have done to us in past, if we keep on relying on them that is all we are going to get and all we seserve what is mentioned by Mastan Khan, three BVR aircrafts!!!. JF is going to give us the ability to go BVR.

regards!
 




You have no idea how political games work. The type of statement by Musharraf you are referring too was a political statement and was mean't to cool down things and distract attention. The reality is the Pakistan had a device ready in 1987 but its existence was not announced until 1998.
As far as I remember , the device was within a week or so of completion. There was pressure from India, so Zia went to India under the guise of watching the match and cooled things off and gave thew scientists enough time to sort out the final glitches. They then coined the term Cricket diplomacy>
Araz
 
Anathema & deckingraj,

Gentlemen---thankyou very much for some very interesting discussions on this topic.

Pakistan and india work differently on weapons systems manufacturing JV's and weapons procurement. Whereas in the JV's---india wants to manufacture some part of a specific electronic system to call it own---pakistan on the other hand starts with being an integral part of manufacturing the core technology or the core of the building process---. So---at the end of the day, pak may not have a single item that has its name stamped on it---but it has earned the integral knowhow of the manufacturing process---that is the frame---and the electronics package---.

On the other hand my indian colleagues have explained how india works. They talk about the development of the LCA and I say that is fine---but it won't make any difference for the JF 17 to face it with its coming bvr package. The advancement at this stage will not make any difference between the two.

But that is how the two countries operate---we work very differently---it is to our ying to your yang----like a day to a night---and at the end of the day---with our lesser resources---you will find us right close to you---not counting the su 30---itis due tot he fact that we take a much shorter time in getting what we need----at least I believe on some of the items.

Now as far as rebuilding the RD 93---I very much doubt it---I have not read anywhere of Rd 93 rebuild plant---pakistan would have to be certified by the rosonob--- to overhaul the system. It will happen in due time----but right now most of it will be done by the chinese.

excellent explanation man :tup::tup::tup:
 
IceCold -- I think MKI might not be appropriate example. In betn MKI has lot of indian contribution -- but its OT.

Take for instance Eurofighter -- Even though its a consortium , for example technologies manufactured by Thales would be solely IP of Thales and the nation of origin, other countries just assemble it. Eurofighter programme is possibly the best possible example of co-operation between nations.
Another example F35 - Even though Americans are actively taking inputs from UK, still none of the technology is being released to UK or any of the partnering nations.
There can be other examples also but this is what comes to mind immediately.
This is how Business works. In lieu of how this stuff works around the world , it would be sensible to say that Pakistani and Chinese relation ship with regards to JF 17 is no different unless you have some tangible proof to show that it is not the case here.

Finally apologies for the showdown.

Thanks.

i had a feeling i needed to be summoned :D

Ok Anathema what you said is very nice but totally non relevant and untrue.

Thales is a private owned company who does every thing from building roads to making air craft and the weapons on them.

Thus the decisions undertaken by Thales almost purely business decissions.

btw, I doubt Thales contributed any thing in EuroFighter, because of it's own competetive product.

In case of JF-17 PAC and Chendgu are both sate run organizations where decision are based on the state's interests.
Knowledge is shared; designs are opened and the best thing is we don't believe in IPR just like the Chineese don't believe in it.

swallow it !

:pakistan::china:
 
MastanKhan sir -- a very nicely written post.. my points below.

Anathema & deckingraj,

Gentlemen---thankyou very much for some very interesting discussions on this topic.

Pakistan and india work differently on weapons systems manufacturing JV's and weapons procurement. Whereas in the JV's---india wants to manufacture some part of a specific electronic system to call it own---pakistan on the other hand starts with being an integral part of manufacturing the core technology or the core of the building process---. So---at the end of the day, pak may not have a single item that has its name stamped on it---but it has earned the integral knowhow of the manufacturing process---that is the frame---and the electronics package---.

Mastan Khan sir - Manufacturing process is one thing whereas designing and creating an item is totally another. It is true a JV does have its benefits as we can see in JF17's case. Pakistan is a equal partner who has had its say in the programme -- it is their fighter and it is their vision. But to say that the intricate knowledge of all the components in the JF17 fighter will be exposed to Pakistani learnings might be stretching a bit too far. As i said earlier every nation/company has to protect its interests , china will be no different. There are no indications in the media that this is not the case ..and hence my point 'If a defect does crop up in JF17 which is related to design or as such any complex part - the chinese will have to be involved'. Its the nature of business - the after sales support is as big in revenue earning as before sales process !! You will know this very well since you were involved with the likes bmw, merc , etc.

But that is how the two countries operate---we work very differently---it is to our ying to your yang----like a day to a night---and at the end of the day---with our lesser resources---you will find us right close to you---not counting the su 30---itis due tot he fact that we take a much shorter time in getting what we need----at least I believe on some of the items.

I belive (i speak for myself) -- the considerable influence of Pakistans armed force's in national defence helps to shorten the time in procurement and induction. This is where India falls apart - Armed forces has no neglible say in defence producrement -- once equipment is selected then its according to governemnts whims and fantasies -- a boon and a curse for us.
 
Knowledge is shared; designs are opened and the best thing is we don't believe in IPR just like the Chineese don't believe in it.

If that has happened then congratulations !!! That is a very significant step although knowledge absorption capacity will take some time build. But if what you said is true then expect Pakistan to make some rapid strides in Aeronautics in this decade.
 
Tit-bits....

Malaysia has also shown interest in jf-17 and analyzing further. They are impressed what they are shown so far.

Egyptians are going for jf-17 and will place a hefty order coupled with license manufacturing. The price offered with current capability is an attractive point and they are willing to induct big numbers.

Four more jf-17 being manufactured at PAC KAMRA and second squadron will be raised by the year end. The work is going on smoothly.

We have already began integrating indigenous goodies at a moderate pace that include HUD and WMMC. More to follow soon.

No rd-93 issues what so ever and China has over 200 of them. Russian Government re-assured them a fluent supply.

Radar is klj-10 already? This surprised me too and the one shown at avionics manufacturing event is klj-10 not 7. One thing to be noticed is its antennae which is a little different than klj-7 i.e. not exactly circular like Grifo S but more like RDY-2.

Both China and Pakistan are looking to increase production lines to cope up with increasing international interest in the aircraft

Regards..
 
Russia just hit the jack pot!
i'm already imagining rd93 in numbers of 4-5 thousand.
with a price tag of 2 million each this may go wel beyond 10 billion.
 
KARF was upgraded with new facilities for high performance avionics production and a separate facility was established in association with a European country to make sophisticated avionics for fourth generation fighter such as jf-17 as well as for other fighters. This facility was established in 2008 and works under KARF. China also provided avionics development and test rigs for this project. Work on avionics and sensors is well under way for at least two years.
 
Here is a hint of the above mentioned points. PAC qualified to manufacture 476 parts to Boeing which itself is an achievement. A little old (2006) but interesting read that reflects what we are capable of as of now in terms of high performance avionics and aircraft parts.....

"KAMRA, Feb 27 (APP): Pakistan Monday joined the coveted list of countries manufacturing aircraft parts for the world's largest aircraft manufacturer - The Boeing Company.

Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz inaugurated the manufacturing facility at the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) which is already manufacturing six types of aircrafts, three types of engines, air defence and air borne avionics systems and their components.

Prime Minister Aziz appreciated Boeing's willingness to transfer technology to further cement business relations and help in building bridges between East and West.

Boeing offered transfer of technology, Boeing Quality Management System Certification training and technical support to PAC, after evaluating all the necessary infrastructure, expertise and internationally recognized Quality System at PAC.

It has received orders for manufacture of 476 parts by November 2006. Boeing is to purchase parts from the PAC till August 2010 under an agreement which could be extended for another two years.

The PAC has also commissioned the hi-tech CNC machines received for Boeing and continues to upgrade its manufacturing special processes - Heat and Surface Treatment and Non Destructive testing facilities.

Prime Minister Aziz also inaugurated the C-130 aircraft propeller overhaul facility for the Hamilton Sunsdstran of Holland.

Pakistan is also currently working on an ambitious joint production programme with China to replace its ageing fleet of Chinese fighters, with a modern multi-role, all-weather, day- night aircraft.

The PAC is supplying aircraft and services to several international companies including the Rolls Royce USA, SAAB of Sweden, Sagem of France.

He said the companies should see the PAC as their extension. "We are not shy of performing, of delivering of being competitive and will supply you the quality products," he added.

Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz also called for more joint ventures and more focus on marketing to leverage the full potential of the organisation.

He said with reliability, quality and dependabilities as its hallmarks, the PAC would now be a partner of Boeing and joint the list of its international vendors.

The Prime Minister referring to the overhauling of propellers for the C-130 aircraft, said it was a workhorse used by many air forces around the world.

"We need to market our capabilities and need to go for joint ventures," he added.

Describing the PAC as a "Centre of Excellence" he appreciated its role in the rebuild, manufacturing and design of aircraft and said "every Pakistani is proud of PAC...you have made us proud."

He said the JF-17 Thunder will be the frontline aircraft of the Pakistan Air Force in the next decade as it has the necessary punch, the avionics and the capability to defend country's airspace.

The Prime Minister said the PAC would expand its manufacturing capabilities in electronics, avionics and production of aircrafts.

He said self-reliance for essential defence equipment was very important for Pakistan as it has seen many a ups and downs in the past.

"The more self-reliant we are, the more we are prepared for future challenges," he said.

Prime Minister Aziz said steps were underway to further enhance exports of the Super Mashak aircraft and appreciated that they have earned the PAC a good repute, both by civil and military users.

Air Vice Marshal Aurangzeb Khan, Chairman Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra said the PAC has developed a sound technological base that can meet international military and civil aviation standards.

He said the PAC underwent an indepth survey and fulfilled all prerequisites for the award of contract from Boeing. Four PAC factories attained the highest quality certification in Aerospace manufacturing of AS-9100 Rev B standard and the ISO 9001 Quality Management System.

"The expertise attained has not only synergized our existing indigenization and JF 17 co-production programmes, but has also enhanced our ability to absorb such offset related opportunities in future," he added.

Vice President of Boeing Ms. Mary Monica said the PAC can now work as a team member of the company and can also compete for future works.

She said the PAC would be a member of Boeing's global supply chain and can provide quality parts at competitive prices.

The Prime Minister was accompanied by the Minister for Defence Rao Sikandar, Minister of State for Defence, Habibullah Warraich, Minister for Defence Production, Minister of State for Defence, Zahid Hamid and Minister of State for Environment, Amin Aslam Khan.

Earlier, Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Kaleem Saadat received the Prime Minister at the Minhas Air Base.

He was briefed about the working and expansion plans of the PAC Kamra by the Chairman of PAC Board Air Marshal Aurangzeb.

The Prime Minister also witnessed the agreement signing ceremony for the manufacture of parts for Boeing by the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex. "

Published article by APP (Associated press pf Pakistan) in 2006
 
If that has happened then congratulations !!! That is a very significant step although knowledge absorption capacity will take some time build. But if what you said is true then expect Pakistan to make some rapid strides in Aeronautics in this decade.

Thank you for understanding;

It will be nice if all Indian members would try to look at things for factual value.

BTW NABIL & BATMAN good news ...
 
If that has happened then congratulations !!! That is a very significant step although knowledge absorption capacity will take some time build. But if what you said is true then expect Pakistan to make some rapid strides in Aeronautics in this decade.

All these developments were in place by the year 2006-7 and we are well on our way of indigenization.
 
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