JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[S.U.R.B.]

Well i guess the idea behind the joint project of JF-17 was not to match the Su-30MKI in terms of capabilities & specifications exactly.

 

[mourning sage]

Well i guess the idea behind the joint project of JF-17 was not to match the Su-30MKI in terms of capabilities & specifications exactly.

so what is its purpose then??? do we have any jet that can match the su-30mki???

 

[Imran Khan]

so what is its purpose then??? do we have any jet that can match the su-30mki???

yaar ye bhut locha hai

we have f-16 and soon in 2014 fc-20 can done this job

 

[Kompromat]

I purpose that why we dont buy sensors for detections and some other instruments from west and them mix them with chines one and make our own radar on our own requirements.

Making radar is a little bit complex than making a sweet pastry i am afraid.

 

[MastanKhan]

And Sir what magic bullet you have in mind for changing your thoughts about JF-17 ???

Hi Tk,

I believe I have said enough about why we don't need the JF 17----but after saying all what I have to say---I also understand the fact that this what I have and this is what I have to live with.

We have already invested our time in developiong this aircraft---and as it doesnot seem likely that things would change in a different direction---I am going to stick with my guns with the JF 17----.

I can complain and critiscize all I can---but that is not constructive---. I look at it this way----I have been given a chicken---I can make chicken soup out of it or chicken sh-it. I will go the constructive way.

I think as a support package pakistan needs a real high tech jamming equipment to compliment the capabilities of this aircraft.

That is one way of coming to terms---the real force multiplier for this plane is the french electronic package and bvr missile system---that is an absolute must---. That is what we all were anticipating---.

In battle front scenario when you are facing an enemy plane---the su 30---I am going to use the worst case scenario---because they have too many of them right now---which is twice the size---with four times bvrs---a bigger radar almost twice as big with heavy heavy jamming capability---JF 17 has its work cut short---smaller plane---smaller radar---shorter missile range---smaller electronic package.

You know sometimes size does matter.

My assessment is that in war like scenario---in the first few days---the IAF will use its heavy hitters to wipe out the opposition to take total control of the air ways----so the JF 17 may not have the oppurtunity to come in contact with lesser capability aircraft in its own league other than the SU 30---which is on a totally different pleateau.

As of now IAF has 100 su 30's---even if it deploys 50 of them---we are still out numbered----our only saving grace is the deployment of 2 sqdrns of the SU 30 at srinagar---.

 

[Storm Force]

Su30mki Nos Today are 124 approx.

Rising now to 272 by 2017.

That is some serious Air power.

If the threat of 126 Super Hornets from usa become reality then no matter how many Thunders are procured it will make no difference.

PAF has to induct 100+ F16/52 & at least 150 J10B.
Even then the Indians will outnumber PAF by at least 2-1 in real 4th gen potent fighters.

Thunders may hold their own against MIG29M & MIRAGE 2000H but that is not the direction the indians are taking.

They inducting the SU30MKI in massive numbers.

 

[mourning sage]

Su30mki Nos Today are 124 approx.

Rising now to 272 by 2017.

That is some serious Air power.

If the threat of 126 Super Hornets from usa become reality then no matter how many Thunders are procured it will make no difference.

PAF has to induct 100+ F16/52 & at least 150 J10B.
Even then the Indians will outnumber PAF by at least 2-1 in real 4th gen potent fighters.

Thunders may hold their own against MIG29M & MIRAGE 2000H but that is not the direction the indians are taking.

They inducting the SU30MKI in massive numbers.

All this indicates only one thing that is air superiority belongs really to India
I heard that the french cancelled the deal after pressure from india. is it true???

 

[notorious_eagle]

which is twice the size---

Excellent, the bigger it is the earlier its detected. Ignore the Indian fanboys who claim that its bigger RCS is meant to intimidate the opponent

with four times bvrs---

The first thing that will be jettisoned by the pilot of MKI when he realizes a missile is on its way to blow his a**. Besides i reckon the fight is likely to occur in WVR rather than a BVR scenario, WVR is something PAF can pride itself upon because our pilots have mastered this art.

a bigger radar almost twice as big with heavy heavy jamming capability---

No doubt an excellent radar, could have been a great advantage if we didn't have 3D Radars and 8 AWACS patrolling the skies. It was not just a coincidence that the MKI was intercepted in a matter of seconds over Kashmir in 2008.
How can you conclude that JF17's electronic package is smaller when its system is not even public. From what i have heard directly from people involved in this project is that it has excellent EW package. RWR, DAS, MAW and other jamming and self protection systems are present on the aircraft. In my opinion thats an excellent electronic warfare package, besides those 3 D20 Falcons and 8 AWACS weren't exactly purchased to be only show cased on Defence Day.

-shorter missile range

Lets wait and see which missile PAF selects for JF17, as Shamim Sahab has disclosed the range for the Darter is 120 Km.

You know sometimes size does matter.

Indeed, would love to see those big a** engines dodge a heat seeking missile.

My assessment is that in war like scenario---in the first few days---the IAF will use its heavy hitters to wipe out the opposition to take total control of the air ways----so the JF 17 may not have the oppurtunity to come in contact with lesser capability aircraft in its own league other than the SU 30---which is on a totally different pleateau.

Let them come, they can send as many heavy hitters as they want. Has PAF ever backed out of a fight? We know what they have but they don't know what we have, let them come and we will unleash our nasty surprises that we have reserved only for IAF. SU30 is a good plane no doubt about that, but please don't make it out to be something its not. Its not some super duper plane that is not beatable, if the Indians were fielding a 5th Generation Aircraft that we couldn't see on our radars than we would have a problem. I will just say this, PAF does not shares the same sentiment as you when it comes to the MKI. They are confident they can counter it, i dont see them freaking out over it.

 

[mourning sage]

Excellent, the bigger it is the earlier its detected. Ignore the Indian fanboys who claim that its bigger RCS is meant to intimidate the opponent



The first thing that will be jettisoned by the pilot of MKI when he realizes a missile is on its way to blow his a**. Besides i reckon the fight is likely to occur in WVR rather than a BVR scenario, WVR is something PAF can pride itself upon because our pilots have mastered this art.



No doubt an excellent radar, could have been a great advantage if we didn't have 3D Radars and 8 AWACS patrolling the skies. It was not just a coincidence that the MKI was intercepted in a matter of seconds over Kashmir in 2008.
How can you conclude that JF17's electronic package is smaller when its system is not even public. From what i have heard directly from people involved in this project is that it has excellent EW package. RWR, DAS, MAW and other jamming and self protection systems are present on the aircraft. In my opinion thats an excellent electronic warfare package, besides those 3 D20 Falcons and 8 AWACS weren't exactly purchased to be only show cased on Defence Day.



Lets wait and see which missile PAF selects for JF17, as Shamim Sahab has disclosed the range for the Darter is 120 Km.



Indeed, would love to see those big a** engines dodge a heat seeking missile.



Let them come, they can send as many heavy hitters as they want. Has PAF ever backed out of a fight? We know what they have but they don't know what we have, let them come and we will unleash our nasty surprises that we have reserved only for IAF. SU30 is a good plane no doubt about that, but please don't make it out to be something its not. Its not some super duper plane that is not beatable, if the Indians were fielding a 5th Generation Aircraft that we couldn't see on our radars than we would have a problem. I will just say this, PAF does not shares the same sentiment as you when it comes to the MKI. They are confident they can counter it, i dont see them freaking out over it.

thnxs for mentioning this.
what does WVR means???

 

[anathema]

Excellent, the bigger it is the earlier its detected. Ignore the Indian fanboys who claim that its bigger RCS is meant to intimidate the opponent

Doesnt matter. Ever since AWACS has come into picture , there are no surprises. If you consider a possibility that AWACS is not in the scenario , then most probably it will Su 30 who will see JF 17 first.
I am having trouble finding KLJ10 specs , if you have that then we can compare it against Bars. Also since Su 30 will soon undergo MLU , it will be upgraded to Ibris -Snow leaopard (if i am correct). This is the radar present in Su 35 and has more detection and power range.

Since it can act as a Mini Awacs itself -- It can further relay the information to second wave of fighters.

The first thing that will be jettisoned by the pilot of MKI when he realizes a missile is on its way to blow his a**. Besides i reckon the fight is likely to occur in WVR rather than a BVR scenario, WVR is something PAF can pride itself upon because our pilots have mastered this art.

What kind of homing missile ? Passive Or active homing?

You do know that passive homing is not accurate - it can easily fooled through chaff's/flares/ etc ..and other counter measures.

Active homming can be jammed (to what degree is debatable). - There is a reason why Elta self protection jammer was selected as a pod for Su 30.

What happens after the missiles are defeated ? What will JF17 do then (if MKI is still there) ?Considering the fact that Su 30 has way too many missiles to exhaust.

Also you should consider that Both Su 30 and JF 17 would have taken BVR shots at each other -- They would already be in a defensive mode. If JF 17 defeats Su 30 BVR missile (R77) then SU 30 can launch another salvo..

No doubt an excellent radar, could have been a great advantage if we didn't have 3D Radars and 8 AWACS patrolling the skies. It was not just a coincidence that the MKI was intercepted in a matter of seconds over Kashmir in 2008.

As i said -- AWACS has rendered any sort of surprises. IAF will be expecting bogies the moment it crosses boundaries. It would be prudent not to think so !! And pretty much sure they would have considered all posibilities - PAF would have done the same.

How can you conclude that JF17's electronic package is smaller when its system is not even public. From what i have heard directly from people involved in this project is that it has excellent EW package. RWR, DAS, MAW and other jamming and self protection systems are present on the aircraft. In my opinion thats an excellent electronic warfare package, besides those 3 D20 Falcons and 8 AWACS weren't exactly purchased to be only show cased on Defence Day.

There is no system yet to be shown to public. PAF is in the process of incorporating that. Lets wait for the details. Also since PAF was interested in French avionics - we can probably consider French as bench mark for JF 17.


Lets wait and see which missile PAF selects for JF17, as Shamim Sahab has disclosed the range for the Darter is 120 Km.



Indeed, would love to see those big a** engines dodge a heat seeking missile.

Let them come, they can send as many heavy hitters as they want. Has PAF ever backed out of a fight? We know what they have but they don't know what we have, let them come and we will unleash our nasty surprises that we have reserved only for IAF. SU30 is a good plane no doubt about that, but please don't make it out to be something its not. Its not some super duper plane that is not beatable, if the Indians were fielding a 5th Generation Aircraft that we couldn't see on our radars than we would have a problem. I will just say this, PAF does not shares the same sentiment as you when it comes to the MKI. They are confident they can counter it, i dont see them freaking out over it.

Su 30 may or may not be a good plane. It still has to prove itself in a war, even i have my doubts about the huge RCS. But that being said -- Look at the numbers -- 120 odd already inducted , 23-28 produced annually --- Those are huge number potent aircraft's... not counting mig 29's , mirage's , etc.

 

[mourning sage]

The su-30mki is also a heavier jet as compared to jf-17 so in a scenario when AWACS are absent the speed might be the option for jf-17. Apart from BVR we r also developing the RAAD misile.
But again these are just my opinions,
Dont criticize me guys if i am wrong coz i just joined and dont know much.

 

[deckingraj]

Let them come, they can send as many heavy hitters as they want. Has PAF ever backed out of a fight? We know what they have but they don't know what we have, let them come and we will unleash our nasty surprises that we have reserved only for IAF. SU30 is a good plane no doubt about that, but please don't make it out to be something its not. Its not some super duper plane that is not beatable, if the Indians were fielding a 5th Generation Aircraft that we couldn't see on our radars than we would have a problem. I will just say this, PAF does not shares the same sentiment as you when it comes to the MKI. They are confident they can counter it, i dont see them freaking out over it.

This is great...seems like you have lot of inside information....In case you can share in the public domain would you mind elaborating a bit more on the reason for the confidence???

Also i have had many discussion with many seniors from across the border on this topic....All have mostly said that AWACS have changed the whole scenario....However there is one question for which i have not got any satisfactory reply....

Let me dwell a little bit into history to set the context....

Both in 1965 and in 1971 PAF strategy was to have pre-emptive strikes in Air Fields to put IAF on defensive and negate the numerical superiority....They did well in 1965 but IAF learned and corrected the mistake in 1971....As a result 60% of sorties were offensive...A significant difference from 65....

In present context the kind of planes both Air-Forces are fielding without AWACS MKI's would be locking any plane in PAF inventory without them having any clue of it....I hope you will agree....With AWACS(in fact better then PAF) on our side as well and MKI's(mini awacs) are pre-emptive strikes or for that matter any strike by PAF in our Air-space possible???

Now i know PAF can defend their Air-Space with the help of AWACS...However defense does not mean that there will be no offensive sorties...right??? Can you share some light on it as well...???

 

[Luftwaffe]

gohar321...The su-30mki is also a heavier jet as compared to jf-17

So?

so in a scenario when AWACS are absent the speed might be the option for jf-17.
Nutter in absence of AWACS what does it has to do with speed?
Even in speed arena su-30 takes the trophy.

Apart from BVR we r also developing the RAAD misile. But again these are just my opinions,

My friend you need serious research my advise go through JF-17 thread page 1 to the current one. You should learn to take criticism and its ok if you are new you will learn just surf up the previous pages.

 

[mourning sage]

thanxs!!!!!!!!!

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Su30mki Nos Today are 124 approx.

Rising now to 272 by 2017.

That is some serious Air power.

If the threat of 126 Super Hornets from usa become reality then no matter how many Thunders are procured it will make no difference.

PAF has to induct 100+ F16/52 & at least 150 J10B.
Even then the Indians will outnumber PAF by at least 2-1 in real 4th gen potent fighters.

Thunders may hold their own against MIG29M & MIRAGE 2000H but that is not the direction the indians are taking.

They inducting the SU30MKI in massive numbers.

We are fine with 2-1 odds , at least it will not be 7:1 odds like it was in 70s embargoes


We will have 300 JF17 thunders by 2014/2015 , and will get 100 J10B by 2015-2016 our seleves

I think we are on right track specially with current plans to develop our own Avionics technology for our fighters