JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 3]

[Sapper]

On the other hand check these. There isn't any major structural difference and very minor internal differences too. The only difference is single piece windshield replacing the 3-piece windshield of the J-7P

Dear,

First of all, both of these are F7PGs, so i cannot spell the differences between these two, but most noticeable, when comparing F7PG with any mig21 variant, check wings, F7PG is double delta, with 10% larger wing area than any other Mig21. Hornet and Super-hornet have 25% wing area difference.

And while we are admitting that F7PG and Bison are still mig21 variants, you are hell bent on convincing me that Su30 and Su35 is not a Su27 variant.

Here is wiki info on Su27 from Wiki page
Sukhoi Su-27 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Variants
[edit] Soviet-era
Left side scheme of a Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker B, first production series
Left side scheme of a Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker B, last production series
Russian fighter Su-27K (later designated Su-33) on the deck of Admiral Kuznetsov

* T10 ("Flanker-A"): Initial prototype configuration.
* T10S: Improved prototype configuration, more similar to production spec.
* P-42: Special version built to beat climb time records. The aircraft had all armament, radar and paint removed, which reduced weight to 14,100 kg. It also had improved engines.
* Su-27 Preproduction series built in small numbers with AL-31 engine
* Su-27S (Su-27 / "Flanker-B"): Initial production single-seater with improved AL-31F engine. The "T10P" or "Su-27P" designation is sometimes used for Su-27S single-seaters stripped of secondary strike capability, assigned to Soviet Air Defence Forces units.
* Su-27UB ("Flanker-C"): Initial production two-seat operational conversion trainer.
* Su-27SK: Export Su-27 single-seater.
* Su-27UBK: Export Su-27UB two-seater.
* Su-27K (Su-33 / "Flanker-D"): Carrier-based single-seater with folding wings, high-lift devices, and arresting gear, built in small numbers. They followed the "T10K" prototypes and demonstrators.

[edit] Post-Soviet era

* Su-27PD: Single-seat demonstrator with improvements such as inflight refueling probe.
* Su-27PU (Su-30): Two-seat limited production machine with improvements such as inflight refueling probe, fighter direction avionics, new flight control system, and so on.
* Su-30M / Su-30MK: Next-generation multirole two-seater. Apparently a few Su-30Ms were built for Russian evaluation in the mid-1990s, though nothing much came of the effort. The Su-30MK export variant was embodied as a series of two demonstrators of different levels of capability.
* Su-30MKA: Export version for Algeria.
* Su-30MKI (Flanker-H): Substantially improved Su-30MK for the Indian Air Force, with canards, vectored-thrust engines, new avionics provided by several nations, and multirole capability.
* Su-30MKK (Flanker-G): Su-30MK for the Chinese air force, with updated Russian-built avionics and multirole capability, but no canards or thrust-vectoring engines. The Chinese navy also bought similar "Su-30MK2" machines with enhanced antishipping attack capabilities.
* Su-30MKM: A copy of Su-30MKI with special configuration for Malaysia.
* Su-30KN (Flanker-B Mod. 2): Improved single-seater that features new electronics that allow the Su-30KN to perform new functions, most concerning navigation.
* Su-30KI (Flanker-B Mod. 2): Improved single-seater with Su-30MK features for Indonesia deal that fell through, following in the steps of an "Su-27SMK" evaluation aircraft flown in the mid-1990s.
* Su-27M (Su-35/-37, Flanker-E/F): Improved demonstrators for an advanced single-seat multirole Su-27S derivative. These also included a two-seat "Su-35UB" demonstrator.
* Su-27SM (Flanker-B Mod. 1): Upgraded Russian Su-27S, featuring technology evaluated in the Su-27M demonstrators.
* Su-27SKM: Single-seat multirole fighter for export. It is a derivative of the Su-27SK but includes upgrades such as advanced cockpit, more sophisticated self-defense electronic countermeasures (ECM) and an in-flight refueling system.[13]
* Su-27UBM: Comparable upgraded Su-27UB two-seater.
* Su-32 (Su-27IB): Two-seat dedicated long-range strike variant with side-by-side seating in "platypus" nose. Prototype of Su-32FN and Su-34 'Fullback'.
* Su-27KUB: Essentially an Su-27K carrier-based single-seater with a side-by-side cockpit, for use as a naval carrier trainer or multirole aircraft.
* Su-35BM/Su-35S: Also dubbed "The Last Flanker" is latest development from Sukhoi Flanker family. It features newer avionics and new radar.


Is there no Russian in this world who could correct the wiki page and say that Su30/33/35 are not Su27 variants.

Dear,
Stop derailing thread and stop pointless banter.

Here I spell it out for you.

F7, F7PG, Bison are Mig21 variants.
Su30/33/35 are Su27 variants.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[S.U.R.B.]

F7 and F7pg not only have re-designed airframe to handle higher angle of attack, bigger antenna array, different cockpit, different avionics altogether, altogether new wing, larger internal fuel tanks and flight parameters that differ from F7 (itself a mig21 upgrade) by as much as 30%~83% in different performance aspects, so we consider it a borderline new aircraft.

That much of a difference it seems we can't just upgrade F-7P to F-7PG them.Doesn't look feasible to upgrade 15 year old frame.Does it?

Sorry for being off topic.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Come on. Just check the specs. There is a load of difference between Su27 and Su30. Its just the airframe that is same and for a reason, it is the most maneuverable airframe in the world, why change something that is perfect??

No. The flankers are dont have the most maneuverable airframe in the world. The TVC engine pretty much makes the Flankers one of the most maneuverable aircraft in the world. The F-16 was fitted with TVC for experimental bases and it performed just as good maneuverability as flankers.

On the other hand check these. There isn't any major structural difference and very minor internal differences too. The only difference is single piece windshield replacing the 3-piece windshield of the J-7P

Oh i believe you are not well informed.

Their is a huge difference between F-7P and F-7PG.

Even F-7P is slightly different then the original copied Mig-21.
The F-7PG has new delta wings, minor airframe changes, new engine, new radar, etc.

 

[Sapper]

No. The flankers are dont have the most maneuverable airframe in the world.

Dear,

Here i must disagree with you as well. Flanker series (with TVC) is hands down the most maneuverable production fighter in the world, followed by F22. Su30 with "Canards" is even more stable in post stall maneuvers, than original Su27s. It can stay at 90 degree AoA for quite some time, while post stall recovery is just awesome.

Sorry for derailing the thread ... so lets get back to JF17.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[ABDULLAH RIZWAN]

i agree that jf 17 multi role fighter is one of the best fighter air craft of P.A.F but it has no compressions with F-16 multi role fighter.

 

[ARCHON]

i agree that jf 17 multi role fighter is one of the best fighter air craft of P.A.F but it has no compressions with F-16 multi role fighter.

compressions ???

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Dear,

Here i must disagree with you as well. Flanker series (with TVC) is hands down the most maneuverable production fighter in the world, followed by F22. Su30 with "Canards" is even more stable in post stall maneuvers, than original Su27s. It can stay at 90 degree AoA for quite some time, while post stall recovery is just awesome.

Sorry for derailing the thread ... so lets get back to JF17.

Regards,
Sapper

Did you even read the entire post carefully?
Given the opportunity to J-10B, F-16, F-15, Gripen EF Rafale with TVC engines, it will perform just as good maneuverablity as flankers.
Watch that video.

 

[Windjammer]

Guys, in the wing configuration, apart from having a distinctive cranked delta configuration, the F-7PG wing has leading edge slats, which gives the PG version much more agility and low speed handling compared to say the Mirage or the MIG-21 series.

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

Guys, in the wing configuration, apart from having a distinctive cranked delta configuration, the F-7PG wing has leading edge slats, which gives the PG version much more agility and low speed handling compared to say the Mirage or the MIG-21 series.

its leading edge Flap not slate.

 

[Windjammer]

its leading edge Flap not slate.

Thanks for the correction buddy, albeit i did read somewhere the term slats

 

[Kompromat]

A little correction, F7P and F7PG are almost the same plane just slightly different version.
Its not Mirage IV but Mirage V.

well i knowthe Pilot who tested this bird in China before it was inducted into PAF .

It was called F-7MG at that time and it is more agile , has better handeling on low speeds and has double delta wing etc.

F-7PG is An upgraded variant of the F-7M, F-7P incorporates many PAF-specific modifications such as Martin-Baker ejection seat, two extra weapon stations for a total of 5, an extra 30 mm cannon and an Italian-designed FIAR Grifo 7 multi-mode radar

The F-7PG variant incorporates a "cranked delta" wing which improves take-off, landing and turning performance considerably, as well as extra space in the nose to accommodate the much improved Grifo 7PG radar.

F-7PG Export variant of the J-7PG, with the single piece windshield replacing the 3-piece windshield of the J-7PG. Pakistan ordered a total of 80 in two batches, with 50 and 30 respectively in each. According to the Pakistan Air Force, the performance at high altitude of the F-7PG has increased more than 83% in comparison to the F-7P/MP. Just like the earlier Italian FIAR Grifo-Mk-II radar on F-7MP/P, the Italian FIAR Grifo-MG radar of F-7PG will be assembled under license by the ISO - 9002 certified Kamra avionics, Electronics and Radar Factory of the Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC).

Thanks

 

[Kompromat]

Thunder's old Cockpit.





Upgraded Cockpit.

 

[Peregrine]

Hi
will JF-17 be getting a TVC engine? would be great if that happens within a year or so

 

[ANG]

Hi, if China can master TVC and add it to a local engine like the WS-13 then the JF-17 will get it. It all depends on China. I also read in a AFM article, that adding TVC to an airplane did not necessarily make it more manouverable, as the airplane airframe had to be designed/optimized from the onset to have this ability. This article also mentioned that having off boresight capability on air-air engagements via a helmet mounted display was more bang for the buck. Thanks!

 

[Kompromat]

Hi
will JF-17 be getting a TVC engine? would be great if that happens within a year or so

There is a TVC variant in development possibaly its a WS-13 variant but it would take a lot of time if i am not wrong.

I believe we need a potent JHMCS system Backed by New Avionics system , Radar , Sensors , Targeting pods along with a TVC Engine.

That would doubble the Punch !

Taimikhan can give his verdict on this.