JF-17 Thunder Multirole Fighter [Thread 2]

[Adios Amigo]

I think pakistan too much depend upon j-17.

thats because of the nature of our defence strategy as we do not have agressive ambitions against anyone contarary to our neighbours, secondly jf -17 is a pretty decent plane capable of meating our defence reqirements so it forms the backbone of our future airforce.

I see report pakistan making serial production of j-17 in pakistan. That's nice I want to know how many in one year.

six by the end of this year, and 36 more in the comming 2 years that makes it 18 per anum, however the production rate will eventually increase to 25-30 per anum in future.

 

[Arsalan]

thats because of the nature of our defence strategy as we do not have agressive ambitions against anyone contarary to our neighbours, secondly jf -17 is a pretty decent plane capable of meating our defence reqirements so it forms the backbone of our future airforce.


six by the end of this year, and 36 more in the comming 2 years that makes it 18 per anum, however the production rate will eventually increase to 25-30 per anum in future.

dont forget the 42 odd planes comming from china in the next two yers and this will enable us to keep pace with the planed numbers!

regards!

 

[TaimiKhan]

Sure they will make it better and deadlier, but that does not mean they will make it bigger. You can't just increase the size of a fighter so easily, you have to re-design it. You can stretch it and make a two-seater but that won't make it much bigger. Look at Gripen and F-16. Gripen NG wasn't made bigger, Saab just modified the internal structure and moved the landing gear housings to allow larger fuel tanks. F-16 was never made bigger except in the Mitsubishi F-2, but even though that looks a lot like F-16, it is a whole new aeroplane. It is also a huge amount more expensive than F-16.

Bigger in the sense, of increasing the wing span, not the overall size as many sources do indicate that in future versions wing span might be increased. Fuselage is already big enough to accommodate a bigger engine then the current one.

Of course more hardpoints are better, but for more hardpoints you need a larger, more expensive fighter. JF-17 is designed to be small and low-cost, why change this? Twin engines are more powerful than single engine, but that doesn't mean the JF needs to be modified for two engines, does it?
The point is that if the JF really needed more than 7 hardpoints, it would have been designed from the start with more than 7 hardpoints. Right now it seems to me that they are just adding two more under the air intakes so that it can carry jammer/targeting pods.

Just for two more hard point the JF-17 size does not need to be increased, they just need to increase the wing span or area to accommodate the additional hard point, but due to multi rail launcher pylons that may not be needed. Just a hard point needed for targeting / jamming pod, IRST would be integrated in the future variants.

You make a good point with the BVR AAMs. But if the kill probability is so low, the fighters will be in heat-seeking SR AAM range in no time. When that happens, what use are those extra 2 heavy BVR AAMs? They are just 360 kg of dead weight that the pilot would probably rather jettison.
If the mission requires more weapons, then more fighters will be sent to do the job anyway.

I agree that the JF could use more hardpoints, but I disagree that it is a huge problem which must be fixed immediately. Bear in mind, the fighter was designed for a BVR combat role - if it needed extra hardpoints for carrying such missiles, they would have added them.
The extra two hardpoints being added will probably just be for EW/targeting/FLIR pods and the like, that's all the aircraft really needs.

JF-17 would be using SD-10 as its BVR missile, which has a minimum engagement range of 1 KM to a max of 100+KM. U said urself that JF-17 was designed as a BVR combat fighter, so for that it needs more BVR carrying capacity, as our adversaries aircraft's in BVR mode can carry 4 or more then 4 BVR missiles. Their aircraft with more BVR missiles & powerful radars can engage more of our aircraft's with their powerful & qty wise more BVR missiles, making our aircraft chances to survive less.
As for why not more hard points in JF-17 at the designing stage, well that may have been due to the engine thrust issue, as designers did not saw the potential for more hard points with current engine thrust, but as newer and powerful engine is installed, more hard points would be installed too. IRST would be integrated in future, and as per current information the EW suit of JF-17 is already integrated inside the aircraft (correct me plzz if wrong), so one hard point for the FLIR & targeting pod is left.

 

[BATMAN]

It can be either a western one, french engines are talked about a lot, but for the time being the engine having most chances is the Chinese WS-13, RD-93 copy, having more engine thrust.

WS-13 is not a copy of RD-93, it is developed more on western lines.
Ws-13 is a total indegionous chinese development.
ws-13 is better option for JF-17 than any other engine from any other state.
On performance ground WS-13 is compareable to RD-93 but more fuel efficient and long life.

 

[TaimiKhan]

WS-13 is not a copy of RD-93, it is developed more on western lines.
Ws-13 is a total indegionous chinese development.
ws-13 is better option for JF-17 than any other engine from any other state.
On performance ground WS-13 is compareable to RD-93 but more fuel efficient and long life.

Well that's a totally new news for me & may be for many others. As far as many reports & chinese own reports, WS-13 is based on a RD-93, also help from Russian & specially Ukrainians on this engine has been sought, an improved version of RD-93, i guess u have mixed the WS-10A which is based on a western CFM-56 engines core. I haven't seen any report or news article saying WS-13 is on western patterns up till now.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3373-ws-13-nearing-completion.html

J-10 thread - Page 10

 

[Arsalan]

Well that's a totally new news for me & may be for many others. As far as many reports & chinese own reports, WS-13 is based on a RD-93, also help from Russian & specially Ukrainians on this engine has been sought, an improved version of RD-93, i guess u have mixed the WS-10A which is based on a western CFM-56 engines core. I haven't seen any report or news article saying WS-13 is on western patterns up till now.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3373-ws-13-nearing-completion.html

J-10 thread - Page 10

yes, it is based on RD93, perhaps it is saidd because of quite similar specs of both thesr system. there thrust is of the same range, the WS13 is a bit heavier but is more fuel efficient! sayong all this it cannot be said that WS13 is a copy of russian RD93, yes it is inspired from tRD93s design but is a purely chines product!

regards!

 

[araz]

yes, it is based on RD93, perhaps it is saidd because of quite similar specs of both thesr system. there thrust is of the same range, the WS13 is a bit heavier but is more fuel efficient! sayong all this it cannot be said that WS13 is a copy of russian RD93, yes it is inspired from tRD93s design but is a purely chines product!

regards!

If you read the chinese reports on WS13, my impression like many other posaters was that it was a copy of RD93. To be honest i have not read of any support from the Ukrainianson the project even though they have parrallel engines of similar sizes. However, more importantly there is a fair bit of help on WS13 from the russians and news of their help in its further development. There is another engine programme labelled WS15 for the 5th generation fighter which is of similar size and capacity. I wonder if posters are mixing the 2 together. There has been talk of clandestine help from various EU countries to china in the engine manufacturing sector, but this might be specifically related to various components and prolonging engine life and enhancing performance.
My2 paisas worth
Araz

 

[Tempest II]

JF-17 #10

 

[SBD-3]

JF-17 #10

Nice Nice

 

[Adios Amigo]

JF-17 #10

I think by, JF-17 #10 u r refering to the one in background. If PAF is going to rase the first sqardren (probably 18 planes) by the end of this year then atleast 4 of them will be comming from china as PAC will only produce 6 of them this year,and we have 8 thunders already which leaves us to the logical conclusion of 4 comming from china.
The one standing infront seems to be an earlier prototype,the air intakes are not DSI, which might suggest JF-17 #10 is also in china parked beside an earlier prototype,, any thoughts

 

[Adios Amigo]

dont forget the 42 odd planes comming from china in the next two yers and this will enable us to keep pace with the planed numbers!

regards!

do u mean to say that other then the 42 planes agreement b/w PAC and CATIC 42 more will be directly comming from china in 2 years. well if that is the case sir,then we will be having 92 planes by the end of 2011. not much sure about that.

 

[Arsalan]

If you read the chinese reports on WS13, my impression like many other posaters was that it was a copy of RD93. To be honest i have not read of any support from the Ukrainianson the project even though they have parrallel engines of similar sizes. However, more importantly there is a fair bit of help on WS13 from the russians and news of their help in its further development. There is another engine programme labelled WS15 for the 5th generation fighter which is of similar size and capacity. I wonder if posters are mixing the 2 together. There has been talk of clandestine help from various EU countries to china in the engine manufacturing sector, but this might be specifically related to various components and prolonging engine life and enhancing performance.
My2 paisas worth
Araz

yes there may have borrowed some aspects form the russians, i mean russian assistance can not be neglected but it is not a copy.( a licience production or a copy-cut-paste sort of thing. it was mailnly a chines project. saying all this, if we have a look at the other side of the picture the russian assistance seems impossible as the russian wont have liked to lose china as a customer of there engines and helping china to develop an engine of there own exactly means the same!

regards!

 

[Tempest II]

I think by, JF-17 #10 u r refering to the one in background. If PAF is going to rase the first sqardren (probably 18 planes) by the end of this year then atleast 4 of them will be comming from china as PAC will only produce 6 of them this year,and we have 8 thunders already which leaves us to the logical conclusion of 4 comming from china.
The one standing infront seems to be an earlier prototype,the air intakes are not DSI, which might suggest JF-17 #10 is also in china parked beside an earlier prototype,, any thoughts

Yes, #10 is the one behind. It is from this video: http://space.tv.cctv.com/video/VIDE1248502691044881 . You can also see #09 in the video.

When they started "mass production" about a month ago, they showed 6 frames at Kamra. Considered that 9 and 10 are seen in this video in China, that already makes 16 planes!

 

[Muradk]

I think by, JF-17 #10 u r refering to the one in background. If PAF is going to rase the first sqardren (probably 18 planes) by the end of this year then atleast 4 of them will be comming from china as PAC will only produce 6 of them this year,and we have 8 thunders already which leaves us to the logical conclusion of 4 comming from china.
The one standing infront seems to be an earlier prototype,the air intakes are not DSI, which might suggest JF-17 #10 is also in china parked beside an earlier prototype,, any thoughts

Sorry friend I am not being rude Its just when you don't know don't say it, It just separates you from who you are, We have more than 8 , and PAC will produce more than 6. The 4 you are talking are 5 we already have them 2 are completed 3 are in Phase 6. There are 8 phases the thunder has to goto becoming a complete Fighter, That includes all the avionics, Radar and **** load of stuff Which Pakistan has chosen for its Thunders.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Well, i guess the new squadron of JF-17 is very near, as A-5 have totally seized to be flying these days, haven't seen any huge A-5 activity for the past 4 weeks.
Once in while one or two go up in the air, but the weekly huge exercises of non-stop activity is no where to be seen, which might be that pilots & ground staff are busy on JF-17 training & stuff.