JF-17 French Avionics Deal On Hold/Cancelled

[Iggy]

So you are saying that india can put presure on the entire world and nobody is going to sell anything to Pakistan and we are getting isolated from the world?
Every country seeks it's interest in the deals with it customers, not everytime diplomacy works. You don't know yet the huge programs which are ongoing in Pakistan from the Italian goverment and companies. Espescially in civil sectors and indian tried to pull the leg but it didn't work, even in the civil sector india is trying to obstacle us but they don't realize that it's not quite possible for them to isolate Pakistan from the rest of the world.

Yaar second para of mine was just a joke.you missed the emotion there .i dont think India going to put pressure on every country..We just dont have the capacity and power to do that..And can you tell me what are those civil programmes India tried to pull your leg??

 

[Dil Pakistan]

just tooooo much chit chat conspiracy gup shup talk show going on here. too sad for me to know that this is being done by most of the pakistanis and indians are just taking this opportunity to make them a laughing stock.

guys just calm down. INDIA DID THIS INDIA DID THAT to thunder project? They told France not to sell pak? Listen! 1.6 billion dollars is not a small amount! France will be happy to seal the deal if pak meet their payment expectation of paying the full amount within their dead line.

I fully agree with Growler. We (especially Pakistanis) are showing a lot of "reactionary style" behavior and giving too much credit to Indians. First of all it is not clear if Indians have pulled it. Even if, SO WHAT !!!! Has the world come to an end ??? If I am the one in-charge in GOP, I would take following steps:

1. I will give this task to the Pakistani ambassador in France to prepare a case, with every detail in it, and present it to GOP in the next 7 days.

2. I would also ask the French ambassador in Pakistan to prepare a case from their point of view, with suggestions that how we can get back on track.

3. I would involve friendly countries (China, UAE, KSA) to lobby on behalf of Pakistan and use the diplomatic muscle.

4. I would like to ask French if they are looking for something else in terms of contract (for e.g. Merlins contract assurance etc) and also if they would like to expand this to add Rafales as well

Don't forget that in current economic climate French are need of money (and very quickly).

Never under estimate the power of dialogue and negotiations. Keep the French engaged and keep them talking.

 

[aks]

dont woory guys aik darwaza band hua hai tou 10 khulain gay

 

[nwmalik]

dont woory guys aik darwaza band hua hai tou 10 khulain gay

i agree
Anyway india cannot buy and pressurize everyone.

 

[Dil Pakistan]

The diplomatic language is often very subtle. Note the use of "on hold" rather than canceled". This can mean a number of things:

1. French want to make deal better from their point of view

2. They want to put pressure on India to win the MRCA contract. If you guys remember, last year our F.M. Mr Qureshi had announced that France is willing to give Pakistan the civil nuclear technology / contract. I was of the view even that time, that it is diplomatic gimmickry from French (and they are good at it).

If we play this right we will get it. If the Indians don't give them the MRCA contract we will be back on track

(APOLOGIES FOR SAME NOTE FROM ME IN TWO THREADS. THERE SEEM TO BE TWO THREADS ON THE SAME TOPIC).

 

[razgriz19]

The diplomatic language is often very subtle. Note the use of "on hold" rather than canceled". This can mean a number of things:

1. French want to make deal better from their point of view

2. They want to put pressure on India to win the MRCA contract. If you guys remember, last year our F.M. Mr Qureshi had announced that France is willing to give Pakistan the civil nuclear technology / contract. I was of the view even that time, that it is diplomatic gimmickry from French (and they are good at it).

If we play this right we will get it. If the Indians don't give them the MRCA contract we will be back on track

(APOLOGIES FOR SAME NOTE FROM ME IN TWO THREADS. THERE SEEM TO BE TWO THREADS ON THE SAME TOPIC).

hope thats true, but i think we are underestimating sd-10 and the chinese fire control radar!
we should stick with them, its cheaper than french one, and we can spend rest of the money on j-10!

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Just get 100 J10B crafts full avionics , AESA radar integrated what else do we need

And put a downpayment for J11B models as well

Put rest in our own avionics industry and engineering

Research & Development has to get promoted locally

We can't keep throwing 3-4 billion dollars every 2-3 years on outside companies

The time we waste in negotiations 4-5 years of negotiations , if we invested that much time in our own productin we would be better off and the money would stay in Pakistan People argue well local development will take 4-5 years but if you look at reality combination of diplomatic sanctions , and 4-5 years of negotiation is same amount of time we wasted ... if we had promoted local companies 60 companies guarenteed funding (provided performane targets were met) then by now we would have our own avionics and we woudl be selling these off to other countries

Lasers, radars, hardware, software is all available in China or cooperation with china
we can just move our own Avionics industry by channeling 2-3 billion dollars into that industry

What we need is initiative , 30,000-40,000 engineers , and 3,000-4,000 consultants on projects divided between 60 local Paksitani companies , and you pump in 2-3 billion dollars in 2-3 years time we will have working prototypes, free from this mumbo jumbo of negotiating with other countries for Avionics

What we need is start giving our 1-2 million dollar grants to Universities on radar research , and get ppl involved, and we need to get our engineers involved in developing 100% locally developed software for planes and advancement in radar and signal processing ...

We can't just depend on other countries to offer us radars and avionics we need to be self reliant on that technical aspect , and this is a perfect oppourtinity to move in that direction -

 

[JiNgOiStIc HiNdU]

Just get 100 J10B crafts full avionics , AESA radar integrated what else do we need

And put a downpayment for J11B models as well

Put rest in our own avionics industry and engineering

Research & Development has to get promoted locally

We can't keep throwing 3-4 billion dollars every 2-3 years on outside companies

The time we waste in negotiations 4-5 years of negotiations , if we invested that much time in our own productin we would be better off and the money would stay in Pakistan

Lasers, Targeting pod, software is all available in China or cooperation with china
we can just move our own Avionics industry by channeling 2-3 billion dollars into that industry

Azad bhai main kal se dekh raha hoon aapko sirf J10b aur J11b hi dikhayi pad rahe hain charo orrr..

 

[shehbazi2001]

I think GoP, headed by PM, should try to resolve this issue with France. French Govt would certainly reconsider it. The issue or gaurantee of payments (if any) must be solved if we want the project work to be done in Pakistan.

JF-17 needs a complete package of Radar+Missiles+Electronic Warfare+recce pods+precision-strike pods. Missiles are linked to radar and its need of the day to introduce a new short range missile better than Sidewinder -9L or 9M. MICA IR is a good candidate for that. At the same time, MICA EM shall complement it as BVR AAM. JF-17 shall not only get a modern radar but also a new IR missile and a new BVR missile.

From F-7 and Mirage experience, we know that Sidewinders were integrated with Italian Grifo radars. But this time for JF-17, we want to integrate BVRs too. So we need a radar, short range and BVR missiles and EW suite for JF-17. Frankly, I dont think that we have many options. With the french package, we would have to integrate only MAR-1 anti-radiation missile and the software etc for that can already be loaded into EW system of JF-17. France already has experience with anti-radiation missiles.

Current photography and recce pods are carried by Mirages of PAF. With French avionics, it can be made possible right from start that JF-17 be able to carry all those recce pods that were carried by Mirages in PAF.

So the french package is better than just another radar and doing the complete integration work of short-range missile, BVR missile and anti-radiation missile. I am not sure of South African missiles and their maturity but if they are in the same league as others, then they can be integrated with an Italian AESA radar. The integration of MAR-1 would then remain uncertain.

In short, french avionics can be tailored right from start to support future integration of pods like SNIPER or Damocles for precision strikes, jamming pods, photographic pods, IR missile, BVR missile and anti-radiation missile.

Now come to anti-ship missiles. They also work in conjunction with radar. Which kind of anti-ship missiles (air launched) Pakistan have? They are exocets.........french missiles.......For JF-17 to be able to carry Exocet anti-ship missile, it should carry French radar......I think PAF does not have any better choice.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Nothing unfrench about this.. If this is true, its the MMRCA deal flexing its financial muscle. $ 1.6 bill (not sure of payments) vs $11 billion + option for another $7 billion.. As they say, Its elementary my dear Watson..

Of course you realize that if this was because of Indian leverage through the MMRCA deal, then the leverage only lasts so long as the Raphel is in the running. As soon as India makes its selection, it frees up other parties, and perhaps even the party that was selected, to go ahead with deals with Pakistan.

Personally I think the GoP's financial situation played a larger part. Pakistan had to finance its first batch of JF-17's through China, and the U-214 deal is also reportedly being delayed because of finances, so a French deal worth 1.6 billion, when we are not sure how the next 100 JF-17 fighters that French deal is to equip will be financed, may be putting the cart before the horse.

 

[Dil Pakistan]

I think GoP, headed by PM, should try to resolve this issue with France. French Govt would certainly reconsider it. The issue or gaurantee of payments (if any) must be solved if we want the project work to be done in Pakistan.

JF-17 needs a complete package of Radar+Missiles+Electronic Warfare+recce pods+precision-strike pods. Missiles are linked to radar and its need of the day to introduce a new short range missile better than Sidewinder -9L or 9M. MICA IR is a good candidate for that. At the same time, MICA EM shall complement it as BVR AAM. JF-17 shall not only get a modern radar but also a new IR missile and a new BVR missile.

From F-7 and Mirage experience, we know that Sidewinders were integrated with Italian Grifo radars. But this time for JF-17, we want to integrate BVRs too. So we need a radar, short range and BVR missiles and EW suite for JF-17. Frankly, I dont think that we have many options. With the french package, we would have to integrate only MAR-1 anti-radiation missile and the software etc for that can already be loaded into EW system of JF-17. France already has experience with anti-radiation missiles.

Current photography and recce pods are carried by Mirages of PAF. With French avionics, it can be made possible right from start that JF-17 be able to carry all those recce pods that were carried by Mirages in PAF.

So the french package is better than just another radar and doing the complete integration work of short-range missile, BVR missile and anti-radiation missile. I am not sure of South African missiles and their maturity but if they are in the same league as others, then they can be integrated with an Italian AESA radar. The integration of MAR-1 would then remain uncertain.

In short, french avionics can be tailored right from start to support future integration of pods like SNIPER or Damocles for precision strikes, jamming pods, photographic pods, IR missile, BVR missile and anti-radiation missile.

Now come to anti-ship missiles. They also work in conjunction with radar. Which kind of anti-ship missiles Pakistan have? They are exocets.........french missiles.......For JF-17 to be able to carry Exocet anti-ship missile, it should carry French radar......I think PAF does not have any better choice.

I agree it is GOP call now.

 

[Dil Pakistan]

Of course you realize that if this was because of Indian leverage through the MMRCA deal, then the leverage only lasts so long as the Raphel is in the running. As soon as India makes its selection, it frees up other parties, and perhaps even the party that was selected, to go ahead with deals with Pakistan.

Personally I think the GoP's financial situation played a larger part. Pakistan had to finance its first batch of JF-17's through China, and the U-214 deal is also reportedly being delayed because of finances, so a French deal worth 1.6 billion, when we are not sure how the next 100 JF-17 fighters that French deal is to equip will be financed, may be putting the cart before the horse.

I agree, this is the right way to analyze this. Wait for India to make its decision on MRCA and then make the next move. If French don't get this MRCA deal they will be mighty Pis**d off with the Indians. It is international political / military dynamics that has affected our JF-17 deal with France.

I think in the meantime we can put pressure on French through various means.

 

[ANG]

Hi, I honestly think Pakistan's lack of funds is one of the major issues. Pakistan is asking the IMF for loans in order to cover its debt servicing requirements.

Given that economic backdrop, who in their right mind would extend a 1+Billion Euro loan to them? How will they pay for this equipment? Unfortunately, Pakistan at this point in time has absolutely no economic clout, and as such, is in no position to do anything.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

From a realistic point of view lets imagine , worse case scenario

Ok the deal is on hold for some time

What are we lacking as an Airforce

a) Our Mirage Fleet can carry the missiles for Sea Missions
and we also can use them vs ground targets
The urgency to move these missiles is minimum
We already have BVR capabilities on Mirages

b) BVR missiles well we are geting F16 C/D and we should be
perfectly fine on that platform 70-90 F16C/D BVR Capable


c) Now comes the Thunder , awesome plane
comes with advance avionics and infact we will get improved
verions of radars ...

Its matter of when not if with Chinese AESA research

The main issue "The BVR missiles" k fine , but seriously
with china investing 100 billion + into research and development
how far are we from getting chinese BVR missiles ?


From Strategic point of view , I think the idea was to have Saab Erie Eye plateform also work with JF17 Thunder

Its not like our Thunder is flying with cotton candy wrapper
We have ample options for arming up Thunders -

Luckily Mr Musharif Sahib saw this and planned ahead with possibility of Chinese awacs for JF17 Thunder platform , love him or hate him he had great vision, alot of people said well why don't we order all Saab Erie Eye but he saw the problems that could happen and luckily also ordered 4-6 chinese awacs , so our planning is 100% and I have to say great move by General

So we are 100% safe , we need to invest in our own Avionics industry but for now we are doing just fine

So now we have 8 billion dollars in our hand ? total deal was 5 billion euros


What is the logical enhancement ?

Well of course J10B (Chendegu Vipers) we have 36 ordered lets just make it 100 fighters fro our Airforce (Enough)

But if we like to just polish up our Airforce we can also get some of
J11

>J11 is ideal in case we need Air Superiority 100 fighters


So what is the problem ?

Mean while we already discussed before that we already have Mirages for another 10 years - gradual decomissioning

We are not in a rush -

2010 is a wonderful year for our Airforce - in term of what we achive in this year is alot ...

a) Air refueling capacity , joint excercies and training with US
b) Induction of 36 F16 C/D block fighters
c) Induction of 36 JF17 Thunder 2 squadrons in 2010
d) Laser guided bombs
e) MLU upgrading 45 F16 A/C to C/D standard
f) Arrival of All Awacs
g) Arrival of extra fuel refuelers
h) We have now what 50+ Cobra gunships with Super cobras in sight
i ) Combat and Missions for our Thunder platform
j) UAV arrival confirmations
k) Missiles anti AWAC
l) Missiles bvr

So we gained so much ... in 2010

The french deal is icing on cake but its not every thing for Pakistan Airforce , we have J10B which is one hell of a plane and its top of the line Chinese fighter

But we have other plans as well -

8 billion dollars we need to go on shopping spree now , as we can now really spend it on full planes fully assembled

 

[air marshal]