JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[batmannow]

Oh please! The WS-10 is too large and powerful for the JF-17, there is no chance to fit it and even more not a single operational J10 uses TVC. So simply forget it.


No… this is nothing but wishful thinking, maybe even a wet dream only. So, forget this too it is plan ridiculous.

Once upon a time JFT as a project was a dream itself?
But look we are standing now?
It's the twin engine blk 4 of JFT they are working on now a days!
wet or not I don't know bout it!
Every great project, was a dream once in the history so don't take it off kid

JFT Block 3 is a true stealth aircraft

None of us can see it even after so much time

At least its been in the news since a long time and now they are putting it up for the show on comming 23rd March ?
While we have TEJAS super duper fighter jet look where it is?

 

[SQ8]

Agreed but in my humble opinion it would be dick measuring. No sane pilot would fly in with a full load of BVRs/WVRs. 4+2 is the most likely we will see in any air engagement. Even that would be a major achievement for the JFT.. The EFT was once flown with a fullload at farnborough and basically flew like a brick. You would need to jetison all the load and run if a BVR was fired at you. My 2 paisas worth.
A

Such loads only make sense if you are capable of employing them in rapid barrages or if your enemy cannot get you in that range - in the India Pakistan scenario if you escape the first BVR engagement the second one will get you unless you leave the combat area.

 

[The Eagle]

View attachment 805151
THUNDER BLK 4 With twin engines BEGAINS
as blk 3 been done !

View attachment 805152

What do you guys can suggest with blk 4 DESIGN and it's engines?

Combat area isn't the last thing in BVR engagements there can be other options like back up CAPS in the air

That's single engine F-16XL contradicting yourself, and till proven right, you are out of Thread for unnecessary comments and derailing.

Regards,

 

[Imran Javed Khan]

View attachment 805151
THUNDER BLK 4 With twin engines BEGAINS
as blk 3 been done !

View attachment 805152

What do you guys can suggest with blk 4 DESIGN and it's engines?

Combat area isn't the last thing in BVR engagements there can be other options like back up CAPS in the air

So what are the age/maturity expectations for posting messages?
Ok, I see swift action was taken by moderator. Awesome!

 

[SQ8]

So I came across this simulation which seems to give a very, very low rating to Pl-12 and a low rating to PL-15 when they are used at around max range, while showing AMRAAM to be vastly superior because of pilot tactics and training as well as technological superiority

NOTE: I shared another simulation by this guy in the 'Azm thread.

In the video under discussion in this post, amongst other things, he is saying that PL-15, although having a superior range, will arrive on target at max range with very little energy left and can be easily evaded by sharp maneuvering towards the ground. Compare this with what I posted here:

JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

What % of each block is built from composite materials? Since its conception, did CAC/PAC targeted a set % of the plane to be built from composite materials? Sorry, not the right place, the project was never conceived as a high and fast and far flyer.

defence.pk

I believe the youtube video only gives partial information. You dive down to force the missile to follow, and then gain altitude to force the missile left with little energy to fight against gravity.

Interestingly, these limitations should apply to AMRAAM as well. I believe the video is hiding even more information. That 'superior tactic' of 'experienced USAF pilots', might just be the use of two AMRAAMS against a single target, with one aiming for high altitude and the other aiming for low altitude at the target. Now, the pilot has virtually no escape route left.

@SQ8 I wish to bring this to the notice of PAF bosses.

I can assure you back in 2011 PAF bosses were well aware of BVR tactics and knew the limitations. That being said this video is very biased and impartial to knowing the USAF tactics (which are the best in the world) and then applying them in a limited scenario. Aiming low and high is something practiced from the 80s when the old two ship formations were abandoned in favor of a more independent wingman.
you don’t dive down just to get the missile to follow you put it on the beam and then dive down to get it into thicker air(and increased friction/drag). However, that is where missiles that can loft themselves like the Amraam and others have the advantage that they don’t follow you immediately. Russian systems haven’t gotten the loft profile in yet but the Chinese are following that profile.

But
The caveat isn’t the PAF bosses knowing this but the new greenhorn in a JF-17. Learning and experience is everything which also applies to decisions made in the heat of battle and why Hassan Siddiquis su-30 claim is taken with lesser regard in terms of pilot understanding of weapons system than wgcdr Nauman’s takedown of the Mig-21.

Today’s PAF pilot has to be exceptionally smart and natural strategist. Both capable and enabled to make independent and collective decisions based upon merit of the decision rather than rank.
#2 &4 of a flight will be providing input into positioning for an attack as much as the lead and suggesting different strategies.

In a way the PAF has made the smarter decision to invest in BvR before weapons for the merge such as HOBS missiles and HMDs because they saw the chess game developing back then - and tested the SD-10 against the AIM-120C and found the performance equivalent.

Well, the centerline was previously reserved for a SPJ, but that can now go on the intake hp. However, I understand a different release mechanism is adopted for missiles on a fuselage hardpoint, one that involves a 'push-off' system vs 'sliding' mechanism on a wing launcher. It is indeed interesting if part of the Blk 3 development involved that as well.

It would be interesting since the push off system adds a bit of weight versus just sliding off a rail.

 

[Deino]

Once upon a time JFT as a project was a dream itself?
But look we are standing now?
It's the twin engine blk 4 of JFT they are working on now a days!
wet or not I don't know bout it!
Every great project, was a dream once in the history so don't take it off kid
…

No, the JF-17 was never a wet dream, but I don‘t know why you think there is aready a Block 4 twin-engined development, nothing like that is in the making! That‘s a wet-dream.

 

[CriticalThought]

I can assure you back in 2011 PAF bosses were well aware of BVR tactics and knew the limitations. That being said this video is very biased and impartial to knowing the USAF tactics (which are the best in the world) and then applying them in a limited scenario. Aiming low and high is something practiced from the 80s when the old two ship formations were abandoned in favor of a more independent wingman.
you don’t dive down just to get the missile to follow you put it on the beam and then dive down to get it into thicker air(and increased friction/drag). However, that is where missiles that can loft themselves like the Amraam and others have the advantage that they don’t follow you immediately. Russian systems haven’t gotten the loft profile in yet but the Chinese are following that profile.

But
The caveat isn’t the PAF bosses knowing this but the new greenhorn in a JF-17. Learning and experience is everything which also applies to decisions made in the heat of battle and why Hassan Siddiquis su-30 claim is taken with lesser regard in terms of pilot understanding of weapons system than wgcdr Nauman’s takedown of the Mig-21.

Today’s PAF pilot has to be exceptionally smart and natural strategist. Both capable and enabled to make independent and collective decisions based upon merit of the decision rather than rank.
#2 &4 of a flight will be providing input into positioning for an attack as much as the lead and suggesting different strategies.

In a way the PAF has made the smarter decision to invest in BvR before weapons for the merge such as HOBS missiles and HMDs because they saw the chess game developing back then - and tested the SD-10 against the AIM-120C and found the performance equivalent.

It would be interesting since the push off system adds a bit of weight versus just sliding off a rail.

Maybe the video is talking about AIM-120D? PAF pilots wouldn't have any deep insight into its capabilities.

Btw, when I said I want to bring this to the notice of PAF bosses, I meant motivating them to invest in indigenous A2A missile technology. You can do all the strategizing you want, but you cannot escape the limitations of technology. Today, we are limited by the technologies others provide us. I want to see a world in which PAF pilots strategize and come up with innovative new solutions not found anywhere else, and PAC/whatever then delivers this new tech. I want to see this cycle started and maintained.

 

[Trango Towers]

Once upon a time JFT as a project was a dream itself?
But look we are standing now?
It's the twin engine blk 4 of JFT they are working on now a days!
wet or not I don't know bout it!
Every great project, was a dream once in the history so don't take it off kid

At least its been in the news since a long time and now they are putting it up for the show on comming 23rd March ?
While we have TEJAS super duper fighter jet look where it is?

You have been told...there is no twin engine or block 4...why are you just repeating rubbish...

Actually how old are you? 15 or something?

 

[Thorough Pro]

@SQ8 @Bilal. @Windjammer @PanzerKiel

F16A/B designation refers to single-seat and twin-seat with GE engine, and
F16C/D designation refers to single-seat and twin-seat with PW engine

If PAF is following the same system then, does
JF-17A/B refer to the single-seat/double seat with RD93, and
JF17C refers to the new RD93MA engine?

 

[SQ8]

@SQ8 @Bilal. @Windjammer @PanzerKiel

F16A/B designation refers to single-seat and twin-seat with GE engine, and
F16C/D designation refers to single-seat and twin-seat with PW engine

If PAF is following the same system then, does
JF-17A/B refer to the single-seat/double seat with RD93, and
JF17C refers to the new RD93MA engine?

Incorrect - the A/B designation for the F-16 was for earlier models which solely had the PW engine

C/D was for updated models which along with avionics and other internal changes had the common engine bay capable of both GE & PW engines.

The C/D designation for the F-16 was applied for the block-25 some 10 years after A/B induction and the internal factory designation continues to be in block numbers.


The JF-17C represents the next generation of the thunder with internal changes that includes redesigned wing blocks, stations, a more refined interior space. Engine isn’t a prerequisite for changing the generation of a fighter.

 

[SQ8]

Maybe the video is talking about AIM-120D? PAF pilots wouldn't have any deep insight into its capabilities.

Btw, when I said I want to bring this to the notice of PAF bosses, I meant motivating them to invest in indigenous A2A missile technology. You can do all the strategizing you want, but you cannot escape the limitations of technology. Today, we are limited by the technologies others provide us. I want to see a world in which PAF pilots strategize and come up with innovative new solutions not found anywhere else, and PAC/whatever then delivers this new tech. I want to see this cycle started and maintained.

That’s probably on the roadmap but we don’t have the knowledge base yet to do this. Please understand as a Pakistani you are still severely limited in the quality of graduates and knowledge base being imparted onto them. Opening up multiple Fintech or service startups whose knowledge base is openly available on the internet is different from people capable of designing a 8inch AESA coupled with guidance system and associated warhead and propellant. The knowledge base doesn’t exist in teaching academia in general so how how the heck will any graduates be generated who can form the core of this research ?

We had to read open mil-stds to create the voice compression protocols that now are commonplace in Pakistan but our knowledge came from all open sources in optimization of code for memory and speed. This was possible because the key academia that taught us were graduates from the US or European universities.
On the other hand I realized during our FYP that the other young lecturers who were local graduates were just repeating the book and more chai-samosa types than people who will actually be able to create a new or even producible inverse SAR system instead of just replicating someone else’s FYP from last year.

Opening Daraaz.pk type business has money in it and motivation for young graduates which is why there is a IT startup revolution- none of them are designing AESA radars . Some of my classmates are today in Microsoft, google or researchers at cambridge - these were your educated middle class kids who were immediately disgusted by Pakistan’s bureaucratic system. Those that either weren’t good enough or were suited to the Chai Samosa life did their stints in NESCOM or other “idaras”. Oddly, of this group the smarter guys whose GPA wasn’t their strong suite went for masters to European countries or S.Korea to now work outside as well.

In the United States - Caltech, MIT and others have some of their brightest sitting in LM, Boeing or even DARPA.. that isn’t true for Pakistani graduates or at least not a relatively high occurrence.

Mentality change keejiyay phir baat keejiye

 

[Trango Towers]

@SQ8 @Bilal. @Windjammer @PanzerKiel

F16A/B designation refers to single-seat and twin-seat with GE engine, and
F16C/D designation refers to single-seat and twin-seat with PW engine

If PAF is following the same system then, does
JF-17A/B refer to the single-seat/double seat with RD93, and
JF17C refers to the new RD93MA engine?

Not again..for God sake

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

.... Even if you would have seen 7th September show of Bol News which never got shown on TV for some reason but its pictures came out even in that several JF-17 BLOCK III were getting ready and that show was done in September.

Which? Please share.

 

[ziaulislam]

View attachment 805063

Dude I had full confirmation. I can tell eight JF-17 have been handed over to PAF. They will be fully inducted when at least 8 to 12 more jets are ready to form a squadron. The FTC tests have been completed and handed over to PAF. Now you want me to share more details then I can't. Seriously not interested in getting picked up. Even if you would have seen 7th September show of Bol News which never got shown on TV for some reason but its pictures came out even in that several JF-17 BLOCK III were getting ready and that show was done in September.

This configration with current engine doesnt make sense

Even replacing the two long range with two fuel tanks will not be enough

Well, the centerline was previously reserved for a SPJ, but that can now go on the intake hp. However, I understand a different release mechanism is adopted for missiles on a fuselage hardpoint, one that involves a 'push-off' system vs 'sliding' mechanism on a wing launcher. It is indeed interesting if part of the Blk 3 development involved that as well.

Nothing impossible, can be done and honestly should be as center point wasnt used anyway
I will feel more comfortable with 3 BVRs as compared to 2 we see today

Incorrect - the A/B designation for the F-16 was for earlier models which solely had the PW engine

C/D was for updated models which along with avionics and other internal changes had the common engine bay capable of both GE & PW engines.

The C/D designation for the F-16 was applied for the block-25 some 10 years after A/B induction and the internal factory designation continues to be in block numbers.


The JF-17C represents the next generation of the thunder with internal changes that includes redesigned wing blocks, stations, a more refined interior space. Engine isn’t a prerequisite for changing the generation of a fighter.

F16c was kinda almost new aircarft like gripen NG
Different engines with 25% more thrust
Larger wings

 

[CriticalThought]

That’s probably on the roadmap but we don’t have the knowledge base yet to do this. Please understand as a Pakistani you are still severely limited in the quality of graduates and knowledge base being imparted onto them. Opening up multiple Fintech or service startups whose knowledge base is openly available on the internet is different from people capable of designing a 8inch AESA coupled with guidance system and associated warhead and propellant. The knowledge base doesn’t exist in teaching academia in general so how how the heck will any graduates be generated who can form the core of this research ?

We had to read open mil-stds to create the voice compression protocols that now are commonplace in Pakistan but our knowledge came from all open sources in optimization of code for memory and speed. This was possible because the key academia that taught us were graduates from the US or European universities.
On the other hand I realized during our FYP that the other young lecturers who were local graduates were just repeating the book and more chai-samosa types than people who will actually be able to create a new or even producible inverse SAR system instead of just replicating someone else’s FYP from last year.

Opening Daraaz.pk type business has money in it and motivation for young graduates which is why there is a IT startup revolution- none of them are designing AESA radars . Some of my classmates are today in Microsoft, google or researchers at cambridge - these were your educated middle class kids who were immediately disgusted by Pakistan’s bureaucratic system. Those that either weren’t good enough or were suited to the Chai Samosa life did their stints in NESCOM or other “idaras”. Oddly, of this group the smarter guys whose GPA wasn’t their strong suite went for masters to European countries or S.Korea to now work outside as well.

In the United States - Caltech, MIT and others have some of their brightest sitting in LM, Boeing or even DARPA.. that isn’t true for Pakistani graduates or at least not a relatively high occurrence.

Mentality change keejiyay phir baat keejiye

So I have brought this up a number of time. I personally believe the only thing we are lacking for A2A missiles is the right rocket motor. Otherwise, Alhamdulillah, today we have composite manufacturing available for the body, along with aluminum casting as needed. We also have experience with very accurate guidance systems, as I have discussed here:

The curious case of Nasr's terminal guidance

Per videos released recently, the Pakistani Nasr missile is a high precision, tactical ballistic missile. The videos show the missile being fired at a slant of 45 degrees, and hitting designated targets in the presence of stiff wind conditions with pin point accuracy. What is confusing is the...

defence.pk

As far as the rocket motor technology is considered, we are lagging behind in materials and chemical engineering. And a first step might be off-the-shelf acquisition, possibly from Brazil or South Africa? Meanwhile, PAC should try to create a knowledge base in these areas. These are the types of initiatives that should be a part of 'Azm.