JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[Cookie Monster]

PS: Before I forget - I am using around 5,000 bilateral retinal images courtesy of Pak Army - normal vision.

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[Goritoes]

I am guessing that by the end of this year, we will see some detail images or flying videos of Block 3, and so will begin a new era of discussion and speculation until the first sq is inducted and those who have Chache , mammy tayee in Airforce will confirm the final configuration for us.

 

[SQ8]

The original debate was comparison of JF-17 with uprated engine against Rafale in BVR. The Rafale can theoretically pull a max 11G (see below). My contention was that the smaller and lighter Thunder can eek out the same performance by pulling comparatively less Gs. So, there is no reason why its control software cannot be relaxed to allow for (let's say) 9Gs momentarily. And thus, flight envelope for flight envelope it can stand toe to toe with Rafale. Reference for Rafale is below.

Dassault Rafale - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If I remember correctly, @GriffinsRule posted a while ago that an exercise was held that pitted F-22, F-35, F-15, and F-16 against one another. The F-35 reigned supreme in BVR, but the F-16 ate it up in WVR. And that makes sense. The world's finest WVR fighter can hold its own against the F-35 that was never meant as a close combat fighter.

Your contention isn’t wrong -

G’s aren’t exactly the only story involved - for all reading
https://www.flyonspeed.org/basic-energy-management

Dependant on the airframe and prevailing scenario (altitude, speed) it is possible that the JF-17 is capable of a tighter turn that the Rafale at that exact condition.

But moving to the WVR scenario posted - the F-35 would be eaten up by a relatively clean F-16 but given that both are armed with 9xs I will be surprised if more often that not it evens out.

BVR is where it really matters and for the forseeable future the JF-17 will continue to outrange the Rafale’s primary weapon. What matters in terms of airframe isn’t necessarily G’a but its EM curve. Having a good T/W to impart punch to the weapon, being able to flow hot and cold rapidly and regain energy for the next launch.

 

[Goritoes]

Your contention isn’t wrong -

G’s aren’t exactly the only story involved - for all reading
https://www.flyonspeed.org/basic-energy-management

Dependant on the airframe and prevailing scenario (altitude, speed) it is possible that the JF-17 is capable of a tighter turn that the Rafale at that exact condition.

But moving to the WVR scenario posted - the F-35 would be eaten up by a relatively clean F-16 but given that both are armed with 9xs I will be surprised if more often that not it evens out.

BVR is where it really matters and for the forseeable future the JF-17 will continue to outrange the Rafale’s primary weapon. What matters in terms of airframe isn’t necessarily G’a but its EM curve. Having a good T/W to impart punch to the weapon, being able to flow hot and cold rapidly and regain energy for the next launch.

You are talking about meteor vs PL-15?

 

[denel]

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PM me, i will give you more info. Or if folks wants a seperare thread, i can post it in Technology work as this work is evolving rapidly.

 

[denel]

I wish u all the best sir. I pray you have great health and success in this world and the other.

thanks friend. Right now. battling to find workers to do work; covid has screwed our lives here in the farming belt. between burying relatives keeping the farm running - it is taking a toll but we manage.

 

[Dreamer.]

PM me, i will give you more info. Or if folks wants a seperare thread, i can post it in Technology work as this work is evolving rapidly.

Definitely would like to know more about this if you can please.

 

[Cookie Monster]

PM me, i will give you more info. Or if folks wants a seperare thread, i can post it in Technology work as this work is evolving rapidly.

I have no clue whatsoever about this subject...to the point where I wouldn't even know how to title the thread properly even if I created one. Could u plz open one and enlighten us? As for ur vision...if u don't mind me asking...is it degrading as a normal aging process? Or is due to some underlying condition? If it is the first...u can explore treatment options...
...for example one of cousins who would only see blurrs without his glasses...got Lasik(just a proprietary name of laser eye surgery I think) surgery. Normally they don't do it...if it's past a certain point...but either they made an exception for him bcuz it was doable...or they didn't notice...
...in any case...it worked. He no longer needs glasses.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Pushing the topic firmly back on track - what is the purpose of 11G stressed airframe?

The F-35 has fairly similar if not more stringent requirements on its G limitations (even though there are more factors involved regarding it turn rate and AoA than just Gs). Yet in most recent exercises it plows through all 4th Gen jets with absolute ease.

Not just because it is LO but because of its superior sensors and fusion presented to the pilot it takes the first shot, keeps out of effective weapon engagement zones and coordinates its attacks with others to dominate. Even if it does end up merging it isn’t any slouch.

So if the preference was to sink funds into having a 11G stressed JF-17 vs a JF-17 capable of tracking at greater ranges, having a weapon that touches the enemy at greater ranges and capable of blinding enemy sensors - the choice is simple. And if it does get into a merge, the pilot just has to look and send a weapon capable of 60G+ maneuvers for 10 seconds of the rail against something trying 11G twists and turns.

you got it. I saw a program on F-35 where a commentator said that F-35's A2A missile will do the G maneuver of around 20 G let its target worry about outmaneuvering that

 

[GumNaam]

you got it. I saw a program on F-35 where a commentator said that F-35's A2A missile will do the G maneuver of around 20 G let its target worry about outmaneuvering that

20 Gs is nothing outta the ordinary for air to air missiles...this just the lingo american military "commentators" use to keep their public in a false sense of security that they are still no 1. but the fact is that all air to air missiles have these high g limits...heck, the Chinese PL12/SD10 claims to have a 38G limit. I thought it to be propaganda but my sources within the PAF have confirmed it to be pretty close 38Gs.

 

[khanasifm]

20 Gs is nothing outta the ordinary for air to air missiles...this just the lingo american military "commentators" use to keep their public in a false sense of security that they are still no 1. but the fact is that all air to air missiles have these high g limits...heck, the Chinese PL12/SD10 claims to have a 38G limit. I thought it to be propaganda but my sources within the PAF have confirmed it to be pretty close 38Gs.
View attachment 731016

read somewhere perhaps an article, a missile need 5 times or 5x y where y is the g of target so if an aircraft is turning 5 G at the time of outflank maneuver or final maneuver to out flank an oncoming missile than 5x5 25 G is required to be pulled by missile , for 6 g it’s 30, 7 g it’s 35 and so on anyway bvr and short range missile are different story. There are other characteristics or parameter as well.

buy compared to 80/90 the missile hit probability has improved, how much ?? M$ dollar question

lastly most of ranges and para r classified and what you see advertised is data shared very ideal cases just lots of ho ha

especially russian r77 is good example proved after feb 27

chao

 

[Dazzler]

Block 3! Where are you? I can't see you yet

By the end of this year or early next.
Klj-7A was tested during an undisclosed foreign exercise.

It uses hybrid cooling. Can be refitted on blk 2.

 

[GumNaam]

By the end of this year or early next.
Klj-7A was tested during an undisclosed foreign exercise.

It uses hybrid cooling. Can be refitted on blk 2.

knowing the PAF...it probably has blk2s flying with those now without announcing it.

 

[aliyusuf]

@GumNaam @Dazzler

Is it possible that some of the Block-II may have been re-equipped with the air-cooled Letri LKF601E AESA instead of retrofitting them with KLJ-7A?
Otherwise not too much of a difference would remain between blocks II and III ... and there would not be much of a justification for the protracted delay in coming out with the block III ???

 

[GumNaam]

@GumNaam @Dazzler

Is it possible that some of the Block-II may have been re-equipped with the air-cooled Letri LKF601E AESA instead of retrofitting them with KLJ-7A?
Otherwise not too much of a difference would remain between blocks II and III ... and there would not be much of a justification for the protracted delay in coming out with the block III ???

no, I don't think so...it seems the KLJ7A has impressed the heck outta the top PAF brass.