JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[arjunk]

"knock knock"

Who's there?

Block 3

Block III, you've been knocking for 1 year and running away. My door and heart has been broken by your constant knocking. Please come for once.

 

[Hassan78610]

Block III, you've been knocking for 1 year and running away. My door and heart has been broken by your constant knocking. Please come for once.

ALLAH knows not one year I am stick to this thread for past 2 - 3 years. Always one tab for this

 

[araz]

So tell me Mr medical professional why the Rafale allows up to 11 G for a few seconds? And by the way, from making radio sets, you are now also a medical researcher? You actually sound like a sham.

Answer the post rather than criticizing the man. What he is or is not is n9ne of your business. Secondly read the post carefully again. He is talking about medical research rather than saying he conducted it. Joint collaboration between armed forces and Medical fraternity is common to make the armed forces products safer for use. That is how you find out about the long term effects of flying supersonic speeds and effects on eyes of high Gs.
A

 

[CriticalThought]

Answer the post rather than criticizing the man. What he is or is not is n9ne of your business. Secondly read the post carefully again. He is talking about medical research rather than saying he conducted it. Joint collaboration between armed forces and Medical fraternity is common to make the armed forces products safer for use. That is how you find out about the long term effects of flying supersonic speeds and effects on eyes of high Gs.
A

I have already linked his post where he says he's doing a thesis on the subject right now. Kindly read all my posts.

Absolutely - but at the same time where aforementioned Dr in my post sat 3 feet across from talking of how that team literally went to the library to pick up books on projectiles and rocket flight to start on Shaheen and at the peak of his involvement with Shaheen I dare say - he was a SME when nothing in his history suggested that.

It could be denel is exaggerating or a sham - or maybe someone who has jumped from project to project which had him gain experience in the subject or maybe he switched careers. One of my classmates who has a small contribution to the NRTC project is now a financial regulations compliance consultant with BCG. If I listed his Undergraduate and even graduate degree to you and told you his extremely specialized(and very well compensated) role - you could ask how since that too requires a lot of expertise and study.

As a closer, a few years ago the JF-17 was having issued with its MFDs flickering or turning off mid flight and the airforce reached out to an engineer who was at one time working for GIDS(when it was called IDS), then focused on Cellular systems, then something entirely different - but his reputation was so rock solid from years ago that they called him to troubleshoot and even ignored glaring security concerns from his end. So sometimes it isn’t just surface academics or qualifications but general intellect and problem solving that defines a person.

However, I will state that you need to not just know the subject but actually be able to speak to it intelligently and discuss at various levels if the discussion gets in depth. As an example I know the general overview of what EW systems are but if you put me next to a dedicated RF engineer and he debates me with Fft or EM jargon which I haven’t touched in 15years I will be at a loss and quick copy-paste wont help there. So the humble path is to either go I don’t know or the self aggrandizement path is to attack the messenger. Depends on the member’s character.

Thank you. You are always a source of such detailed information, it's a pleasure reading it when it's not pot shots at religious people

I asked him to explain how come Rafale can pull up to 11 G temporarily and all he has is to push the weight of his current medical research. He is avoiding the main argument and trying to gain ascendancy by brandishing his qualifications.

 

[denel]

So tell me Mr medical professional why the Rafale allows up to 11 G for a few seconds? And by the way, from making radio sets, you are now also a medical researcher? You actually sound like a sham.

amazing. You really have no clue on me.
As @SQ8 notes you have a lot to learn in life and grow up.

Yes, i am also an amateur radio operator with one antenna design to my name. Great hobby - you can visit your local amateur radio affiliation in Australia. That was a hobby since childhood - I do 40words per min CW. That plus ability to speak 6 languages landed me up a career in Sigs and entire pathway into secure comms. You were probably not even born when i did DETS - Digital Entry Terminal System design. I did 2 PhD in Electical Engineering because one project lead to another opportunity in research.

Having worked on very exciting projects for over 38 yrs; i had to retire to because i am losing my vision. As I write this I lost 70% in my right and have about 60% on my left; Now i am farming and helping my community. In the meantime, i was asked to see where i could help in this capacity - so this is what i am doing. The research implications are extremely wide and application to every part of our lives. I dont need to tell you - if you are in university - ask your family doctor - Diabetic Retinopathy; that is where i started to dig into it; even though my condition is not related to it but rather due to multiple blasts that I had lived through. So right now the focus is on retinal fovea impact due to trauma that can be incurred on the field; we started with high G because it is a repeated action and driving the corelation and tracking analysis. The idea is to have a medical cloud based tool where anyone in the world can have any fundus photo uploaded.

No - I am not a medical person nor will I claim to be one. I am just a pawn in the hand of God to help others in this world of ours.

PS: Before I forget - I am using around 5,000 bilateral retinal images courtesy of Pak Army - normal vision.

 

[denel]

Please ignore him, he is not very bright and even have a problem comprehending simple things. He puts up his name as critical thought but i doubt if he is capable of that, even on an elementary level.
@The Eagle @waz its a similar case to that guy named something like MS paint or armchair, launching on members and being rude and aggressive while have no idea or knowledge about the topic. Please have a look.

No worries - there are biggest issues in the world to contend with. We all need to play our contributing part to this to make it a better place.

I always go with what my late grand mothers said - "when you leave this world, god will ask you what did you do for family and community - you will be judged for your role". I am pressed against time not knowing when i will lose complete vision - the push is one to finish this work within next 18-24months.

 

[Vortex]

No worries - there are biggest issues in the world to contend with. We all need to play our contributing part to this to make it a better place.

I always go with what my late grand mothers said - "when you leave this world, god will ask you what did you do for family and community - you will be judged for your role". I am pressed against time not knowing when i will lose complete vision - the push is one to finish this work within next 18-24months.

May Hachém make miracle for you and give you recovery and good health.

 

[denel]

May Hachém make miracle for you and give you recovery and good health.

ty my friend. I am at peace - it is god's will.; make a prayer for me during ramadhan and 8 deceased family members from covid.

 

[ARMalik]

amazing. You really have no clue on me.
As @SQ8 notes you have a lot to learn in life and grow up.

Yes, i am also an amateur radio operator with one antenna design to my name. Great hobby - you can visit your local amateur radio affiliation in Australia. That was a hobby since childhood - I do 40words per min CW. That plus ability to speak 6 languages landed me up a career in Sigs and entire pathway into secure comms. You were probably not even born when i did DETS - Digital Entry Terminal System design. I did 2 PhD in Electical Engineering because one project lead to another opportunity in research.

Having worked on very exciting projects for over 38 yrs; i had to retire to because i am losing my vision. As I write this I lost 70% in my right and have about 60% on my left; Now i am farming and helping my community. In the meantime, i was asked to see where i could help in this capacity - so this is what i am doing. The research implications are extremely wide and application to every part of our lives. I dont need to tell you - if you are in university - ask your family doctor - Diabetic Retinopathy; that is where i started to dig into it; even though my condition is not related to it but rather due to multiple blasts that I had lived through. So right now the focus is on retinal fovea impact due to trauma that can be incurred on the field; we started with high G because it is a repeated action and driving the corelation and tracking analysis. The idea is to have a medical cloud based tool where anyone in the world can have any fundus photo uploaded.

No - I am not a medical person nor will I claim to be one. I am just a pawn in the hand of God to help others in this world of ours.

PS: Before I forget - I am using around 5,000 bilateral retinal images courtesy of Pak Army - normal vision.

You are giving too much importance to this fellow - just push the ignore button and it does wonders.

 

[TNT]

No worries - there are biggest issues in the world to contend with. We all need to play our contributing part to this to make it a better place.

I always go with what my late grand mothers said - "when you leave this world, god will ask you what did you do for family and community - you will be judged for your role". I am pressed against time not knowing when i will lose complete vision - the push is one to finish this work within next 18-24months.

I wish u all the best sir. I pray you have great health and success in this world and the other.

 

[araz]

And when confronted, you are unable to tell us why the Rafale can temporarily pull 11 G. And if the Rafale can do it, why can't the JF-17 be configured to temporarily exta Gs? Do you know more than the designers of Rafale? The designers of Rafale failed to consult you regarding effects on eyesight? Please enlighten us.

The 16s are set for upto 9Gs but that does not mean they can not pull 11Gs. Ask around on F16.net and you will find a couple of drivers who will tell you they have done so . The strain on the body is immense but it can be and has been done. Because of the Canards the Delta canards can pull insane maneouvres and the air frame will withstand it. Of course you do it at the expense of air frame and pilot life and well being. However in certain life saving conditions it has been necessary to do so.
A

 

[SQ8]

And when confronted, you are unable to tell us why the Rafale can temporarily pull 11 G. And if the Rafale can do it, why can't the JF-17 be configured to temporarily exta Gs? Do you know more than the designers of Rafale? The designers of Rafale failed to consult you regarding effects on eyesight? Please enlighten us.

Disconnecting from previous arguments and settling on just this - it all depends on what the airframe is stressed to and the limitations put on the pilot. If I am not mistaken the original fulcrum was actually stressed to 16g or something but limited to 9. The same way a F-15 pulled some 12G’s in a desperate maneuver but it also cost millions in damage to the airframe (twisted screws, rivets, spars). It is possible that the Rafale may be stressed to double digit Gs but then that too has a * at the end if it:

A. Is that 11G limit clean with X% of fuel in the tanks or loaded with weapons?

B.Is that designed to be a regular occurrence with pilots or a last ditch maneuver much like the Cobra for the Sukhoi?

C. How long can the pilot actually sustain it? Does the G suit that comes with the Rafale offer additional capability somehow?

It is possible that the block-II and Block-III may be stressed to 10G and it is possible they are not. The F-16 does 9G but ask the pilots who go through it and they will prefer to be beaten up by a wrester from Sargodha instead of it because at least that way they wont get arthritis of the neck and other joints in their body.

 

[SQ8]

Pushing the topic firmly back on track - what is the purpose of 11G stressed airframe?

The F-35 has fairly similar if not more stringent requirements on its G limitations (even though there are more factors involved regarding it turn rate and AoA than just Gs). Yet in most recent exercises it plows through all 4th Gen jets with absolute ease.

Not just because it is LO but because of its superior sensors and fusion presented to the pilot it takes the first shot, keeps out of effective weapon engagement zones and coordinates its attacks with others to dominate. Even if it does end up merging it isn’t any slouch.

So if the preference was to sink funds into having a 11G stressed JF-17 vs a JF-17 capable of tracking at greater ranges, having a weapon that touches the enemy at greater ranges and capable of blinding enemy sensors - the choice is simple. And if it does get into a merge, the pilot just has to look and send a weapon capable of 60G+ maneuvers for 10 seconds of the rail against something trying 11G twists and turns.

 

[CriticalThought]

Disconnecting from previous arguments and settling on just this - it all depends on what the airframe is stressed to and the limitations put on the pilot. If I am not mistaken the original fulcrum was actually stressed to 16g or something but limited to 9. The same way a F-15 pulled some 12G’s in a desperate maneuver but it also cost millions in damage to the airframe (twisted screws, rivets, spars). It is possible that the Rafale may be stressed to double digit Gs but then that too has a * at the end if it:

A. Is that 11G limit clean with X% of fuel in the tanks or loaded with weapons?

B.Is that designed to be a regular occurrence with pilots or a last ditch maneuver much like the Cobra for the Sukhoi?

C. How long can the pilot actually sustain it? Does the G suit that comes with the Rafale offer additional capability somehow?

It is possible that the block-II and Block-III may be stressed to 10G and it is possible they are not. The F-16 does 9G but ask the pilots who go through it and they will prefer to be beaten up by a wrester from Sargodha instead of it because at least that way they wont get arthritis of the neck and other joints in their body.

The original debate was comparison of JF-17 with uprated engine against Rafale in BVR. The Rafale can theoretically pull a max 11G (see below). My contention was that the smaller and lighter Thunder can eek out the same performance by pulling comparatively less Gs. So, there is no reason why its control software cannot be relaxed to allow for (let's say) 9Gs momentarily. And thus, flight envelope for flight envelope it can stand toe to toe with Rafale. Reference for Rafale is below.

Dassault Rafale - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The aircraft is capable of withstanding from −3.6g to 9g (10.5g on Rafale solo display and a maximum of 11g can be reached in case of emergency[61][62]).

Pushing the topic firmly back on track - what is the purpose of 11G stressed airframe?

The F-35 has fairly similar if not more stringent requirements on its G limitations (even though there are more factors involved regarding it turn rate and AoA than just Gs). Yet in most recent exercises it plows through all 4th Gen jets with absolute ease.

Not just because it is LO but because of its superior sensors and fusion presented to the pilot it takes the first shot, keeps out of effective weapon engagement zones and coordinates its attacks with others to dominate. Even if it does end up merging it isn’t any slouch.

So if the preference was to sink funds into having a 11G stressed JF-17 vs a JF-17 capable of tracking at greater ranges, having a weapon that touches the enemy at greater ranges and capable of blinding enemy sensors - the choice is simple. And if it does get into a merge, the pilot just has to look and send a weapon capable of 60G+ maneuvers for 10 seconds of the rail against something trying 11G twists and turns.

If I remember correctly, @GriffinsRule posted a while ago that an exercise was held that pitted F-22, F-35, F-15, and F-16 against one another. The F-35 reigned supreme in BVR, but the F-16 ate it up in WVR. And that makes sense. The world's finest WVR fighter can hold its own against the F-35 that was never meant as a close combat fighter.

 

[Riz]

"knock knock"

Who's there?

Block 3

Ehm Ehm... Welcome to the party... First Blk3 is ready and flying here in pak