JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[Pakistan Space Agency]

During war-time, wouldn't factories for entities like POF and PAC be prime targets for the Indians?

We had an aerial battle in February 2019. Factories survived.

If anything, as a direct result of that conflict Block-2 Bravo production finished a year earlier.

 

[SQ8]

For many months I have seriously thought of stopping posting due to deteriorating quality of posts. However the last few days have made me read up a number of very good posts from various persons.
I fully agree that war in the subcontinent will be Zero sum game and the likelihood is of limited skirmishes below the threshold of either nation pushing the proverbial red button. I do umderstand that these skirmishes could-easily escalate out of control which remains a worry.
The rafale conundrum is again one where we will go out our way to take one down if we can. On the other hand the IAF will probably for the forseeable future use them in the high role armed with Meteor for a shot from afar. I do not think they will for tbe next 3-5 years use them for aggressive maneouvres but instead use MKIs and M2Ks. Loss of those may not be as catastrophic as the loss of a Rafale. So to bag that trophy will require some planning. I can-only see a Rafale loss in case of a response to an attack from PAF.
MY ONLY SURPRISE is that the US is not offering us more-technology laden 16s which we could go for. A Rafale kill by a 16 would be such a big feather in the US Cap I am sure they will sell the 16s to us at cost just to achieve that. However the name of the game will be in planning to lay the-trap.
A

I believe the US sale is a matter of funds and lobbying - neither of which we are good at. I do not doubt that Lockheed Martin would be eager to have a F-16V bring down Rafale.

Why would US want a F-16 to kill a Rafale? They r pushing their F-35 hard for export. If F-16 can killed a Rafale. It might discourage allies from buying a F-35 which is a bigger ticket for US.

This is also a VERY valid point - if the potential sales target realizes that the F-16 is still a very potent weapon against the eurotwins and super sukhois, they wont buy the F-35z

Very little warning time in the world of SOW being used to strike from their side of the border, I would even say zero. I dont see how our radars can pick up store separation from aircraft in their territory, we will only know of the strike when munition lands in Pakistan. So I dont understand why you say the interception cann't be avoided when you are at the same time saying SOW from their side can be used.

So if we are agreed that interception is near impossible in the given scenario, I ask my question again, What makes you say their pilots were nervous during the strike?

Store separation isnt the question - we don’t know if they are or are not intending to hit something 50km from the border or 200km. You do respond, and considering it is a 2000km border with the IAF capable of using dogleg approaches to decide where it wants to go(that is exactly what they did) the PAF has to ration its interception resources. Considering that by the time the IAF flight was at its maximum intrusion depth the PAF fighters were approaching them - this wasn’t a bad response and few AirForces in my limited opinion can do better on QRA.

As for the nervousness, read Indian reports on it - they have stated it themselves.

 

[FuturePAF]

Why would US want a F-16 to kill a Rafale? They r pushing their F-35 hard for export. If F-16 can killed a Rafale. It might discourage allies from buying a F-35 which is a bigger ticket for US.

Proving the superiority of American Technology over French Technology. There are many countries around the world that won’t get cleared for the F-35, so the continued sale of Block 70/72 F-16s will do well for defense contractors, specifically Lockheed and Northrop (produces the radar for the Block 70/72 and the F-35)

Even the sale of a relatively small number of Block 52 F-16s with their Amraams played a decisive role in Feb’19 Swift Retort Op. a Sale of 24 F-16 Block 72 F-16s is good for regional stability and a win win for US relations with Pakistan and for US defense contractors.

It’s good for China, because a more secure Pakistan is one that can continue to concentrate on social and economic development and funding infrastructure projects.

 

[syed_yusuf]

Each pilot has a limited service life and he/she has to learn from the beginning with each platform.

I would like to see some results of exercises between PAF F-16s vs PAF JF-17s and see which comes out on top.

Why ? What interest you ?

 

[araz]

Each pilot has a limited service life and he/she has to learn from the beginning with each platform.

I would like to see some results of exercises between PAF F-16s vs PAF JF-17s and see which comes out on top.

There are 2 things. Each pilot before he retires will pass on his experience to many of his juniors. So multiple pilots avail the cumulative experience of a small number of pioneers and before you know it you have a wealth of knowledge about the function, the strengths weaknesses and in what sphere to use the platform to its best performance.
Regards
A

 

[m52k85]

All this talk of F-16V and AMRAAM-D, I am young at my knowledge doesnt go back long but have the americans ever sold us their front line equipment? AMRAAM-D would be the best BVR they currently have and similarly F-16Vs are front line because it is the best iteration of 4 gen which they intend to operate along side 5 gen.

If the answer to my question is no, please tell me what we have done recently to warrant better treatment than before?

 

[Falcon26]

Each pilot has a limited service life and he/she has to learn from the beginning with each platform.

I would like to see some results of exercises between PAF F-16s vs PAF JF-17s and see which comes out on top.

Google institutional capture. Knowledge is no longer tied to a single individual.

 

[Vapour]

We had an aerial battle in February 2019. Factories survived.

If anything, as a direct result of that conflict Block-2 Bravo production finished a year earlier.

Yes, was using the term that you used in the previous post.

 

[Pakistan Space Agency]

There are 2 things. Each pilot before he retires will pass on his experience to many of his juniors. So multiple pilots avail the cumulative experience of a small number of pioneers and before you know it you have a wealth of knowledge about the function, the strengths weaknesses and in what sphere to use the platform to its best performance.
Regards
A

Yes, but there's only so much juice you can get out of the same ganna from the 1980s.

Has PAF not yet mastered the JF-17 Thunder as much as possible considering its been in the service for nearly a decade and a half? As well as, PAF can add a lot more flying hours to the JF-17 than it could to F-16s.

JF-17 pilots (serving and retired) will probably now outnumber the F-16 pilots.

The point i'm trying to make is that the downside of the F-16 in PAF is, it's old, outdated and Pakistan is unable to test or fly the latest models. There's little room to improvise. That's not the case with the JF-17 Thunders.

Personally, in my humble opinion, medium-weight F-16's days are numbered. It's existence in the PAF will be streched until medium-weight NGFA is inducted. This is the same position of light-weight Mirages and F-7s - they're just waiting to be scrapped pending further light-weight JF-17 Thunder inductions.

 

[FuturePAF]

All this talk of F-16V and AMRAAM-D, I am young at my knowledge doesnt go back long but have the americans ever sold us their front line equipment? AMRAAM-D would be the best BVR they currently have and similarly F-16Vs are front line because it is the best iteration of 4 gen which they intend to operate along side 5 gen.

If the answer to my question is no, please tell me what we have done recently to warrant better treatment than before?

The F-16 Block 72 with Aim-120C7 and Aim-9X II should still be potent enough to deal with the Rafale threat, if we can couple them with a Growler type platform based on the JF-17B.

The goal is to prevent the enemy from being able to engage from the Meteors maximum NEZ and forcing the plane in closer. Where F-16’s short ranged Aim-120C7 will have more of a chance to achieve a kill

Even if we can procure only 18-24 Block 72, but also buy a large number of used F-16s (which we could upgrade) to replace our Mirages, we should be set for a while.

With the new Biden Administration we should see if Turkey can get back into the F-35 program, and as they start getting the 100+ F-35s, we should see if we can procure the F-16s they plan to retire (after a SLEP and a AESA MLU). 24 new Block 72 and 100 ex-Turkish AESA F-16s along with an upgrade of our current 75 F-16s to the V standard or Turkish AESA standard, should give us back the qualitative and quantitative ability to defend ourselves and wait another decade until project AZM is ready. This along with inducting 50-100 more JF-17s should allow us to finally retire the Mirages and F-7s, and field enough squadrons to defend against the IAF with enough planes all along the border.

 

[m52k85]

The F-16 Block 72 with Aim-120C7 and Aim-9X II should still be potent enough to deal with the Rafale threat, if we can couple them with a Growler type platform based on the JF-17B.

The goal is to prevent the enemy from being able to engage from the Meteors maximum NEZ and forcing the plane in closer. Where F-16’s short ranged Aim-120C7 will have more of a chance to achieve a kill

Even if we can procure only 18-24 Block 72, but also buy a large number of used F-16s (which we could upgrade) to replace our Mirages, we should be set for a while.

With the new Biden Administration we should see if Turkey can get back into the F-35 program, and as they start getting the 100+ F-35s, we should see if we can procure the F-16s they plan to retire (after a SLEP and a AESA MLU). 24 new Block 72 and 100 ex-Turkish AESA F-16s along with an upgrade of our current 75 F-16s to the V standard or Turkish AESA standard, should give us back the qualitative and quantitative ability to defend ourselves and wait another decade until project AZM is ready. This along with inducting 50-100 more JF-17s should allow us to finally retire the Mirages and F-7s, and field enough squadrons to defend against the IAF with enough planes all along the border.

But then you dont need block 72s to fully utilize c-7s if jamming is coming from a third platform, and the c-7s only give us 10% extra reach over our c-5s.

 

[FuturePAF]

But then you dont need block 72s to fully utilize c-7s if jamming is coming from a third platform, and the c-7s only give us 10% extra reach over our c-5s.

Jamming platforms have a relatively narrow direction they can aim their transmitters against an enemy radar or electronics. The goal is to close the gap, as well as protect the platforms from pop-up SAM threats. The extra 10% may only be 10% extra, but it’s still gives more options to the pilots.

a plane with two receiver pods on the wing tips along with three jamming pods (high band, mid-band, and low-band) can disrupts in all kinds of ways, I.e. breaking datalinks, comms, low frequency radar on the low band.

The Block 72’s modern radar with the right techniques could still operate in that environment and while the C7’s extra range is not absolutely necessary, it does limit the risk of getting shot down by the enemy.

Range for the c7 may only be 10% longer, but perhaps the NEZ maybe more than 10%, and that could be a crucial edge.

Sometimes wins are made by small margins

 

[araz]

The F-16 Block 72 with Aim-120C7 and Aim-9X II should still be potent enough to deal with the Rafale threat, if we can couple them with a Growler type platform based on the JF-17B.

The goal is to prevent the enemy from being able to engage from the Meteors maximum NEZ and forcing the plane in closer. Where F-16’s short ranged Aim-120C7 will have more of a chance to achieve a kill

Even if we can procure only 18-24 Block 72, but also buy a large number of used F-16s (which we could upgrade) to replace our Mirages, we should be set for a while.

With the new Biden Administration we should see if Turkey can get back into the F-35 program, and as they start getting the 100+ F-35s, we should see if we can procure the F-16s they plan to retire (after a SLEP and a AESA MLU). 24 new Block 72 and 100 ex-Turkish AESA F-16s along with an upgrade of our current 75 F-16s to the V standard or Turkish AESA standard, should give us back the qualitative and quantitative ability to defend ourselves and wait another decade until project AZM is ready. This along with inducting 50-100 more JF-17s should allow us to finally retire the Mirages and F-7s, and field enough squadrons to defend against the IAF with enough planes all along the border.

I think the lines with Turkey have been drawn and further fissures will emerge. This was not just Trump policy this is a strategic reallignment instigated by the deep state. Biden is unlikely to be able to execute massive policy shifts in the short to medium term.
This remains my personal view.
On the F16s they remain relevant till 2060. FGFA will not be a carte blanche change rather there will continue to be a need of another couple of fighters. J10 will put all Pak eggs in one basket and that is contrary to our stated and executed policy of a 2 tier system. Plus PAF has been known to extract the last ounce of function out of any platform and the 16s will not be any different.
A

 

[Marker]

What makes you say their pilots were nervous during the strike? We now know that deal with hastily dropped munitions was not the reason for the miss, rather it had to do with the targeting data/ coordinates.

The whole hasty drop story was probably for media consumption, to allay any initial public reaction as to why the PAF didnt intercept the package.

At least one SPICE 2000 bomb was jettisoned, as it was found intact.

Remaining bombs exploded on the trees, may be because of wrong intel target coordinates or incompetency (lack of skills) of the IAF pilots.

However, IAF penetration inside Pakistani airspace revealed slackness of Pakistani air defense in that region, which was immediately addressed and necessary air defense systems were inducted and positioned to cover the gap.

 

[ARMalik]

Yes I'm an Engineer. Yes I'm a system integrator. Yes I do know basic Integration principles and standards because this is my bread and butter hence I can say with certainty that

Whatever you've written in the post is not how things works. Why?

1. EW and Radar has to be integrated to get the most optimal result. If they exist as 2 different components you are wasting and underutilizing your components and not getting the best out of your component. Just like the HMD and 5th Gen AIM-9x or PL-10. without HMD you gonna get a sub optimal result and wont get the full functionality out of it.

2. As I understand Spanish EW and KLJ-7 radar in block-1 and 2 are integrated to a Central Unit, through which they display their info on MFD and pilots decide how best to apply EW and in which direction to get the optimal result

2.5. Do you know what are the protocols? It is language used by 2 systems to talk to each other. Does Pakistan has Language aka source code of Spanish EW to integrate it to Chinese Radar? No it isn't. Hence the reason Pakistan didnt go for western EW and Chinese Radar in Block-3. Both Radar and EW are of chinese origin so they can be integrated.

Once both EW and Radar are integrated now you are able to deploy EW efficiently in a way where your radar is telling you precisely the coordinates and directon to deploy the EW to effectively degrade the Enemy radar

Hence the reason, Pakistan is reluctant to go to Chinese Air cooled Radar For Block 2. Because of the precise Integration issues with spanish EW systems.

Well fantastic to know that you are an engineer, otherwise, I would have been just wasting my time explaining. Now, let's go through what you have written.


1. EW and Radar has to be integrated to get the most optimal result. If they exist as 2 different components you are wasting and underutilizing your components and not getting the best out of your component. Just like the HMD and 5th Gen AIM-9x or PL-10. without HMD you gonna get a sub optimal result and wont get the full functionality out of it.

Yes one of the reasons. But this is not the PRIMARY reason why EW and Radar are INTEGRATED. The PRIMARY REASON relates to the processing power of the High Speed Integrated Circuit (VHSIC) aka the onboard computer. But Before I explain this further, just remember EW were not that sophisticated until now. As you would know, the jammers only use to jam radars, and did not jam any type of sensors. These systems are/were manual, isolated from other systems, and hard-wired. BUT most important of all, requiring a lot of onboard Power.

Now things have changed. The new generation EW is software programmable and VLSI. It interacts with the air defense systems of enemies and friends. Together with Radar and all other gadgets of the aircraft, THERE IS TONS AND TONS OF INFORMATION WHICH NEEDS TO BE PROCESSED VERY QUICKLY. The thinking behind an Integrated EW and Radar is that BEING ONE VLSI DEVICE IT WILL REQUIRE LESS POWER. MEANING A MUCH MORE POWERFUL VHSIC aka Onboard Computer can be installed. THE NAME OF THE GAME IS WHOEVER PROCESSES INFORMATION QUICKLY, GETS THE UPPER HAND. It does not matter how good your gadgets are if you do not have the computing power installed to process it quickly and gain the upper hand.

2. As I understand Spanish EW and KLJ-7 radar in block-1 and 2 are integrated to a Central Unit, through which they display their info on MFD and pilots decide how best to apply EW and in which direction to get the optimal result

EW decisions are NOW FAIRLY AUTOMATIC, and do not require too much input from the Pilot anymore. The days of pilot making decision on the direction of EW is over in the jets carrying these sophisticated systems including JF-17.

2.5. Do you know what are the protocols? It is language used by 2 systems to talk to each other. Does Pakistan has Language aka source code of Spanish EW to integrate it to Chinese Radar? No it isn't. Hence the reason Pakistan didnt go for western EW and Chinese Radar in Block-3. Both Radar and EW are of chinese origin so they can be integrated.

Why do you want to know/understand Protocols when you have components made to MIL-STD standards?? It does not matter if the manufacturers are South African, Spanish, UK, Sudan, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Russia, US or whatever - when your products are made to these standards it simply becomes PLUG AND PLAY. Yes the manufactures will have "Access Codes" to gain access to utilize the features of their product once it is being tested or being integrated, just like password to your computer. I would strongly recommend to listen AVM Shahid Latif's interview where he clearly explains this.