JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[Syed1.]

My dear friend, I have worked as a driver developer for the whole 5 years. If what you said is true, then I guess there is no issue of making the radar and EW talk because every device with a driver also provides an API for the client for further integration in his/her system. So the PAF can ask for API from both Radar (china) and EW (Spain) and hire some software developer to make them talk and develop a unified interface for the pilot. Note that I have developed Drivers for many devices like scanners/ printers etc and we are also further asked to develop an API that can be used by the end client as a black-box having all the functions call available to the end-user for integration.
Note that I don't know the technical details of EW or Radar. I have just answered your questions which seem related to my experience. Thanks

Well explained. I however would like to point out that providing API is purely upto the discretion of the vendor.

Using your printer example I as a vendor could use the same driver for a buyer who pays me $500 for a printer and provide them with API for black and white printing and a buyer who pays me $1000 for b/w and colored printing.


I suppose in military hardware every vendor wants you to use their own proprietary suite of hardware and therefore there is less inclination to provide APIs for integration with other subsystems.


Situation used to be the same with computing hardware in the 70-80s when if you buy an IBM computer you had to buy IBM peripherals. Now if a company does that it'll quickly go out of business.


(Embedded software engineer)

 

[TsAr]

Third party drivers was an example. In terms of EW system, the source code is the drivers. Third Party is the Spanish.

Why Rafael is so potent? Because of the sensor fusion and all the data being projected onto single MFD as a single unified picture which lets the pilot quickly and efficiently decide. That sensor fusion occured because of the integration of all sensors.

Now take JF block 2 example, Pilot has to separately check chinese radar and Spanish EW data as there is no sensor fusion. Which may or may not introduce delay in pilot decision making, depending upon pilot proficiency

Hence Pakistan went for a complete chinese package in block 3 instead of hedge podge. To get that sensor fusion and utilize the sensors to its full extent and with a single touch of button, a centralized controller telling each sensor what to do based on the threat level that has been identified. Instead of pilot observing the feed of each sensor and then deciding what to do and telling each sensor to do specific task

Could not agree more with you on sensor integration. One of the reasons for failure of SU-30 mki was sensor integration, you turn on the EW it degrades the radar of SU-30, reason being that neither the Israeli's not the Russians were willing to share the source code with each other or India.

 

[Marker]

Well explained. I however would like to point out that providing API is purely upto the discretion of the vendor.

Using your printer example I as a vendor could use the same driver for a buyer who pays me $500 for a printer and provide them with API for black and white printing and a buyer who pays me $1000 for b/w and colored printing.


I suppose in military hardware every vendor wants you to use their own proprietary suite of hardware and therefore there is less inclination to provide APIs for integration with other subsystems.


Situation used to be the same with computing hardware in the 70-80s when if you buy an IBM computer you had to buy IBM peripherals. Now if a company does that it'll quickly go out of business.


(Embedded software engineer)

Sometimes bulk buying of certain systems motivate vendors to provide whatever, assistance required to optimize the performance of the system in the alien environment.

Furthermore JF-17 will not be flown by single Air Force, it will be part of many Air Forces, where these system will be tested in real time situation. Therefore most of the western vendors would like to avail this opportunity for their product exposure in International market.

Even transfer of technology is also possible. Business world play business diplomacy differently and always independent of geopolitical influence.

 

[Syed1.]

Could not agree more with you on sensor integration. One of the reasons for failure of SU-30 mki was sensor integration, you turn on the EW it degrades the radar of SU-30, reason being that neither the Israeli's not the Russians were willing to share the source code with each other or India.

Sharing of source code is not necessarily needed for proper integration.

Your mouse/keyboard does not share any source code with your PC, but you connect them to your USB port and viola within seconds you have it up and running.

 

[Bratva]

Sharing of source code is not necessarily needed for proper integration.

Your mouse/keyboard does not share any source code with your PC, but you connect them to your USB port and viola within seconds you have it up and running.

It happens because of this.

All the keyboard, Mouse, Hard drives, Sound Card, Video Cards manufactures follows the standard. And they work With Microsoft, Apple MacOS and Open source Linux developers so that their devices are compatible with Operating system

Now come to the Military Grade software . Do you think Any nation will allow the Chinese vendor to integrate their radar with their Electonic warefare systems?

 

[Bratva]

Sometimes bulk buying of certain systems motivate vendors to provide whatever, assistance required to optimize the performance of the system in the alien environment.

Furthermore JF-17 will not be flown by single Air Force, it will be part of many Air Forces, where these system will be tested in real time situation. Therefore most of the western vendors would like to avail this opportunity for their product exposure in International market.

Even transfer of technology is also possible. Business world play business diplomacy differently and always independent of geopolitical influence.

You need to differentiate b/w two things. Providing a product is different. Allowing the product to integrate with the other products is a different thing. Spanish EW is working perfectly in a standalone mode in Block2, But its not integrated with KLJ V2.

Myanmar is using Chinese EW system in their JF-17. So your argument nullifies that PAF bulk buying EW system made Spanish vendor to provide them a way to integrate EW with chinese radar.

Transfer of technology doesnt Guarantee Integration.

Why Pakistan is hiding BABUR SLCM firing from Agoesta 90B ? Every test that has been conducted and shown to public, PN never shows explicitly Agosta firing SLCM? Because Pakistan modified the Submarine without French permission and they can't openly admit that.

What is even GREATER is the ability NOT to comprehend. By the way, why are you not displaying your Country of origin on your profile?

Can you prove Spanish or Western Vendors allow Pakistan To Integrate their Products with Chinese Radar? so JF-17 can achieve the sensor fusion? It will greatly help me in understanding whose not comprehending the the basic concept of Military grade software and its integration with eachother

 

[Syed1.]

It happens because of this.

View attachment 704238View attachment 704239


All the keyboard, Mouse, Hard drives, Sound Card, Video Cards manufactures follows the standard. And they work With Microsoft, Apple MacOS and Open source Linux developers so that their devices are compatible with Operating system

Now come to the Military Grade software . Do you think Any nation will allow the Chinese vendor to integrate their radar with their Electonic warefare systems?

Sir a driver is a series of libraries (.dll or .a etc) that let the PC know how to talk to the peripheral but it does not have any of the code for someone to alter and change. I know because I have written drivers.

 

[Marker]

You need to differentiate b/w two things. Providing a product is different. Allowing the product to integrate with the other products is a different thing. Spanish EW is working perfectly in a standalone mode in Block2, But its not integrated with KLJ V2.

Myanmar is using Chinese EW system in their JF-17. So your argument nullifies that PAF bulk buying EW system made Spanish vendor to provide them a way to integrate EW with chinese radar.

Transfer of technology doesnt Guarantee Integration.

Why Pakistan is hiding BABUR SLCM firing from Agoesta 90B ? Every test that has been conducted and shown to public, PN never shows explicitly Agosta firing SLCM? Because Pakistan modified the Submarine without French permission and they can't openly admit that.

Can you prove Spanish or Western Vendors allow Pakistan To Integrate their Products with Chinese Radar? so JF-17 can achieve the sensor fusion? It will greatly help me in understanding whose not comprehending the the basic concept of Military grade software and its integration with eachother

What is "military grade" software?

Do not infer based on assumptions.

If PAF and manufacturers are claiming that JF-17 avionics and weapon system packages are of plug and play configuration and JF-17 may carry a fusion of western and eastern weapon systems, then they must have some sort of viable solution to integrate these in JF-17.

 

[Tariq Habib Afridi]

Well explained. I however would like to point out that providing API is purely upto the discretion of the vendor.

Using your printer example I as a vendor could use the same driver for a buyer who pays me $500 for a printer and provide them with API for black and white printing and a buyer who pays me $1000 for b/w and colored printing.


I suppose in military hardware every vendor wants you to use their own proprietary suite of hardware and therefore there is less inclination to provide APIs for integration with other subsystems.


Situation used to be the same with computing hardware in the 70-80s when if you buy an IBM computer you had to buy IBM peripherals. Now if a company does that it'll quickly go out of business.


(Embedded software engineer)

I totally agree with you.

 

[Shabi1]

Whats the debate here, everyone more or less saying the same thing but want to sound more knowledgeable. PAC KAMRA has a integration lab, they would be handling the software integration for hardware from multiple suppliers.

 

[Bratva]

What is "military grade" software?

Do not infer based on assumptions.

If PAF and manufacturers are claiming that JF-17 avionics and weapon system packages are of plug and play configuration and JF-17 may carry a fusion of western and eastern weapon systems, then they must have some sort of viable solution to integrate these in JF-17.

Did I say Anything About weapon systems and it's integration with JF-17 ? I've been harping about EW systems and sensors which is different than the integration of Weapon system inside JF-17


Let's begin with PAF Statement and their plug and play claims about avionics and weapon system. There are 2 vital components which you MUST HAVE control over if you want have to integrate weapons of your own choice plus If the vendor is willing to provide source code of his weapon system to PAF

Pakistan Aeronautical Complex Kamra - Avionics Systems Co-produced Projects

pac.org.pk

So fortunately Pakistan has complete control over these 2 items and If manufacturer and vendor is willing as well. Pakistan Can Integrate weapon of its choice unlike The indian SU-30 MKI where Russian refused to let india integrate Israeli Missile on SU-30

Since PAF claims it can integrate any western weaponry of its choice. Unfortunately the facts on the ground speak for itself. Since last 13-14 years, have you seen any Western weapons on JF-17 beside Chinese and Pakistan produced weapons? Either it means Pakistan is not interested in purchasing any weapon system for JF-17 or the Western weapon manufacturers were not keen to integrate their weapons with JF-17. Except MAR-1 ARM which for which Brazil cooperated with PAF fully to integrate it on Mirage and JF-17

Now coming to our argument of EW system and sensor integration with radar. You cant integrate EW systems and other sensor with these two modules.

So yes I'm not making any assumptions. Also Kindly show me which manufacturer has claimed Spanish or Western EW systems can be integrated with JF-17 readily ?

 

[Bratva]

Whats the debate here, everyone more or less saying the same thing but want to sound more knowledgeable. PAC KAMRA has a integration lab, they would be handling the software integration for hardware from multiple suppliers.

Pakistan Can not integrate the Western EW system with the chinese Radar. Others are claiming Pakistan Can. This is the point of debate here. And MODP 2013 year book said this thing which confirms Spanish EW system is in a standalone mode and is not integrated with KLJ Radar for sensor fusion

" 2013 modp publication, we read the following:
Integration Activities: Following activities were executed by integration group. EW Suite Controller (EWSC): M/s Indra’s EW Suite Controller (EWSC) pre-integration was successfully accomplished in DSI Lab. Chaff & Flare Dispenser (CFD) made by Air Weapons Complex (AWC) has also been interfaced with EWSC, and pre-integration has been verified in DSI lab"

 

[BON PLAN]

Sharing of source code is not necessarily needed for proper integration.

Your mouse/keyboard does not share any source code with your PC, but you connect them to your USB port and viola within seconds you have it up and running.

If, for exemple, you want to integrate a western BVR missile on a russian or chinese jet. You need to give the way the data link is running to give the mid course information.
The way the data are encrypted (even without the proper software) is a good information to help you to find a jam solution... This is why it is so unusual to fit western radar/weapon and eastern components and vice versa.

 

[Shabi1]

Pakistan Can not integrate the Western EW system with the chinese Radar. Others are claiming Pakistan Can. This is the point of debate here. And MODP 2013 year book said this thing which confirms Spanish EW system is in a standalone mode and is not integrated with KLJ Radar for sensor fusion

" 2013 modp publication, we read the following:
Integration Activities: Following activities were executed by integration group. EW Suite Controller (EWSC): M/s Indra’s EW Suite Controller (EWSC) pre-integration was successfully accomplished in DSI Lab. Chaff & Flare Dispenser (CFD) made by Air Weapons Complex (AWC) has also been interfaced with EWSC, and pre-integration has been verified in DSI lab"

2013 is 7yrs ago we had a software upgrade on Blk-2s later as V2 radars. Its a whole lot of speculation and think into such details would be irrelevant since its information PAF or anyone who actually has the right info will not discuss. Those guys arn't idiots, common sense for such a customized platform where PAF has full access to everything, they wouldn't risk one system compromising another. Otherwise its needless incompetence.

Its common reasoning why PAF itself is doing the integration work rather than outsourcing to China is the exact reason above. Suppliers can share their integration codes/details/protocols with PAC without risk compromising to a third party as PAC will guarantee it will do the work itself. Ff not willing to do so and compromise the practicality they don't get to do business as alternatives available.

Integration is even more important on the Block-3 as AESA radar transceivers are multipurpose and can be used for other communication applications. Sharing a test link and reportedly this is in practical use on AESA equipped jets.

F-22 superjets could act as flying Wi-Fi hotspots

Pricey stealth fighter finally useful?

www.theregister.com

 

[LKJ86]

Via @航空工业 from Weixin