JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[m52k85]

I don’t think the interception can be avoided - if anything the defense may have the attacking force either abandon mission or trade range for accuracy.
The distance between most “targets” from the border means that the Hammer is a very suitable weapon to attack these targets while staying over own airspace.

They may cross in as before just to prove a point and that is where engagements would occur. Either way, it all depends whether we get a well planned strike like ours was or one with nervous pilots like theirs was.

What makes you say their pilots were nervous during the strike? We now know that deal with hastily dropped munitions was not the reason for the miss, rather it had to do with the targeting data/ coordinates.

The whole hasty drop story was probably for media consumption, to allay any initial public reaction as to why the PAF didnt intercept the package.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

What makes you say their pilots were nervous during the strike? We now know that deal with hastily dropped munitions was not the reason for the miss, rather it had to do with the targeting data/ coordinates.

The whole hasty drop story was probably for media consumption, to allay any initial public reaction as to why the PAF didnt intercept the package.

Or, due to an effective application of some EW techniques by Pak....

And, it's not the first time (and it won't be the last) the Paks have overwhelmed the clever Jewish folks.....

I don't give a rat's a$$ to the Arabs. My primary concern is Pak - Ben Gurion, the first PM of Israil

 

[raja786]

The attacking force will always have numerical superiority in these type of strikes, so I guess the smart thing to do would be to not intercept a strike and then go full force yourself. This is assuming the initial strike by IAF is a PR one on an insignificant target.

Thank God you are not in uniform or anywhere near policy makers. We always managed to intercept Indians and make them run for there life. When one join the forces you don't think to sit back and hide. No matter what you always defend the land. Our brave sons always have been sacrificing there lives for the country and always will. You are giving too much weight to Rafael, we are planning to bring it down on any cost. We can sacrifice if we have too few birds mean nothing but look at the bright side one Rafael downed whole Indian camp will die. We make our jet's they don't. We can bring down whole EU technology to the ground, never to make a stand again. Look for wining not to live for another day.

What makes you say their pilots were nervous during the strike? We now know that deal with hastily dropped munitions was not the reason for the miss, rather it had to do with the targeting data/ coordinates.

The whole hasty drop story was probably for media consumption, to allay any initial public reaction as to why the PAF didnt intercept the package.

I think can be wrong it was just calculated move for Modi to win elections not to destroy any targets in Pakistan.

 

[m52k85]

We always managed to intercept Indians and make them run for there life.

IIRC from his interview Shahid Latif will differ with you.

 

[m52k85]

No matter what you always defend the land. Our brave sons always have been sacrificing there lives for the country and always will. You are giving too much weight to Rafael, we are planning to bring it down on any cost. We can sacrifice if we have too few birds mean nothing but look at the bright side one Rafael downed whole Indian camp will die. We make our jet's they don't. We can bring down whole EU technology to the ground, never to make a stand again. Look for wining not to live for another day.

Bhai its not about our bravery but the logistics, anything short of multiple 24 hr CAPs along the length of border, WB and LOC in the world of SOW strikes and that too, close to the border will mean its not possible to intercept. Even if a CAP sees a SOW strike package on the other side of the fence, peace time rules of engagement will mean we can only watch as the PGMs fall on our side.

What you say would apply once the war has started and both countries know that.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I think they will use it pretty soon and likely to some good affect. They are getting first class training from the French so it all depends on them putting the right pilots through it. Say what you will about Abhinandan, he did show aggression and a will to fight unlike the MKi and M2k pilots who chickened out.

If the right IAF pilots are trained on the Rafale, they can pull off a successful attack pretty quickly possibly scoring a kill or two due to numerical superiority while attacking. They can then keep the Rafale back and harp on it while using the MKis with upgraded radios and M2ks to fight a morale boosted defense against any attempt by us to retaliate.

So really, the factor isn’t just the block-III but the quality of pilots the IAF fields on it.

I agree. The PAF will have to change its thinking a little regarding the Rafale. It'll have to accept losses as a fact, but look to knock off enough Rafales to make the cost higher for India.

Basically, the message would change from, "we have the qualitative edge" to something like, "it's easier for us to replace 2 Block-3s than it is for you to buy a new Rafale."

And at a more macro-level, we would need to shift from the "superior individual" mentality to "we have enough to end you." Basically, change from being a lion/tiger to more of a honey badger.

 

[Xone]

Basically, change from being a lion/tiger to more of a honey badger.

Henoy badger does not fit to our goal set mentality, We as a nation have the tendency towards the outshining individuals rather than a uniform high standard entity.
JF-17B3 is the best, what we have right now to pitch against our rival mighty Rafael.

 

[SQ8]

What makes you say their pilots were nervous during the strike? We now know that deal with hastily dropped munitions was not the reason for the miss, rather it had to do with the targeting data/ coordinates.

The whole hasty drop story was probably for media consumption, to allay any initial public reaction as to why the PAF didnt intercept the package.

Before we get into why the PAF did not intercept the package - what do you suppose the warning time the PAF has for its 2000 mile border with India?

I agree. The PAF will have to change its thinking a little regarding the Rafale. It'll have to accept losses as a fact, but look to knock off enough Rafales to make the cost higher for India.

Basically, the message would change from, "we have the qualitative edge" to something like, "it's easier for us to replace 2 Block-3s than it is for you to buy a new Rafale."

And at a more macro-level, we would need to shift from the "superior individual" mentality to "we have enough to end you." Basically, change from being a lion/tiger to more of a honey badger.

Pakistanis already have that - deep down the Indians know, that while they may “defeat” Pakistan ; whatever is going to be left over of them in the process wont even look like a semblance of a livable piece of land - leave alone a nation state.


Pakistan will take them down - as many of the 1.1 billion of them as the 250 million can. If that doesn’t sober them then they truly are the most vainly stupid nation on the face of this earth.

 

[Rafael]

Before we get into why the PAF did not intercept the package - what do you suppose the warning time the PAF has for its 2000 mile border with India?

Pakistanis already have that - deep down the Indians know, that while they may “defeat” Pakistan ; whatever is going to be left over of them in the process wont even look like a semblance of a livable piece of land - leave alone a nation state.


Pakistan will take them down - as many of the 1.1 billion of them as the 250 million can. If that doesn’t sober them then they truly are the most vainly stupid nation on the face of this earth.

PAF will just have to make sure that every strike by IAF gets a proportional reply. Surely Rafale cannot be present in every sector. IF we can inflict equal or more damage on the other side, we will be good.

 

[SQ8]

PAF will just have to make sure that every strike by IAF gets a proportional reply. Surely Rafale cannot be present in every sector. IF we can inflict equal or more damage on the other side, we will be good.

Absolutely, the same way the PAF cannot be present in every sector and doesn’t own hypersonic interceptors when the enemy can potentially launch a stand off weapon from inside their border and turn back. After all, 2/26 we had to really verify what they had hit because there is more than one seminary in that general locality and then verify the damage.
2/27/19 was a very measured response and it is surprising when folks cannot see that. During the 62 cuban missile crisis the US had to use extremely measured responses as to not set off WW3.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

Bhai its not about our bravery but the logistics, anything short of multiple 24 hr CAPs along the length of border, WB and LOC in the world of SOW strikes and that too, close to the border will mean its not possible to intercept. Even if a CAP sees a SOW strike package on the other side of the fence, peace time rules of engagement will mean we can only watch as the PGMs fall on our side.

What you say would apply once the war has started and both countries know that.

Ever heard of BVRs??

 

[araz]

If wishes were horses, PAF would have been riding Burraq in to the battle and Me and you would have been riding F-22.

Point being We and me all echo the sentiment that you've described in your post. But we have to be realistic. You've seen the piston engine UAV PAF produced? So yeah we have to taper down our expectations. We are not Turkish who aim for excellence and High tech from the get go. Pakistanis start with the make do product and refine it over the years or in 10-15 year timeframe. Take an example of Babur cruise missile from 2005-2020 And JF-17 development from 2007 - 2020

If we pour as much resources as Turkish do, We will get what you have said in your post which is hardly gonna happen, no?

Until then PAF will continue to field limited amount of Imported Hi Tech hardware from China USA and Europe to maintain the Technology parity with India and maintain the quality aspece , while domestic efforts would be geared towards quantity aspect to keep up with the number game

Fully agree and a very pragmatic approach. It is an approach which is not unheard of. The EU cars are fantastic and technologically very smart and upto date but lose out to the Japanese in the reliability stats. The reason is they will put in more hi tech stuff which is mofe prone to breaking down. However the Japanese put in tried and tested stuff and make their cars more reliable to win one aspect of the battle. It maybe the same in Pakistan's case. Firstly no one will give you upto date tech at a price you can afford( not even the Chinese contrary to the fancy dream world most of our posters live in). They will always try to sell you the whole system which you cannot afford to buy. You therefore buy what you can get from whereever and work on it to get it in the general area of compatibility with your neighbour. Your neighbour is the darling of the powers that be currently and also has much wider pockets. You therefore do not want to upstage them totally as they will try and get better tech which you cannot get your hands on. So it is a battle of deterrance on a matchbox sized budget.

 

[araz]

Before we get into why the PAF did not intercept the package - what do you suppose the warning time the PAF has for its 2000 mile border with India?

Pakistanis already have that - deep down the Indians know, that while they may “defeat” Pakistan ; whatever is going to be left over of them in the process wont even look like a semblance of a livable piece of land - leave alone a nation state.


Pakistan will take them down - as many of the 1.1 billion of them as the 250 million can. If that doesn’t sober them then they truly are the most vainly stupid nation on the face of this earth.

For many months I have seriously thought of stopping posting due to deteriorating quality of posts. However the last few days have made me read up a number of very good posts from various persons.
I fully agree that war in the subcontinent will be Zero sum game and the likelihood is of limited skirmishes below the threshold of either nation pushing the proverbial red button. I do umderstand that these skirmishes could-easily escalate out of control which remains a worry.
The rafale conundrum is again one where we will go out our way to take one down if we can. On the other hand the IAF will probably for the forseeable future use them in the high role armed with Meteor for a shot from afar. I do not think they will for tbe next 3-5 years use them for aggressive maneouvres but instead use MKIs and M2Ks. Loss of those may not be as catastrophic as the loss of a Rafale. So to bag that trophy will require some planning. I can-only see a Rafale loss in case of a response to an attack from PAF.
MY ONLY SURPRISE is that the US is not offering us more-technology laden 16s which we could go for. A Rafale kill by a 16 would be such a big feather in the US Cap I am sure they will sell the 16s to us at cost just to achieve that. However the name of the game will be in planning to lay the-trap.
A

 

[Beast]

For many months I have seriously thought of stopping posting due to deteriorating quality of posts. However the last few days have made me read up a number of very good posts from various persons.
I fully agree that war in the subcontinent will be Zero sum game and the likelihood is of limited skirmishes below the threshold of either nation pushing the proverbial red button. I do umderstand that these skirmishes could-easily escalate out of control which remains a worry.
The rafale conundrum is again one where we will go out our way to take one down if we can. On the other hand the IAF will probably for the forseeable future use them in the high role armed with Meteor for a shot from afar. I do not think they will for tbe next 3-5 years use them for aggressive maneouvres but instead use MKIs and M2Ks. Loss of those may not be as catastrophic as the loss of a Rafale. So to bag that trophy will require some planning. I can-only see a Rafale loss in case of a response to an attack from PAF.
MY ONLY SURPRISE is that the US is not offering us more-technology laden 16s which we could go for. A Rafale kill by a 16 would be such a big feather in the US Cap I am sure they will sell the 16s to us at cost just to achieve that. However the name of the game will be in planning to lay the-trap.
A

Why would US want a F-16 to kill a Rafale? They r pushing their F-35 hard for export. If F-16 can killed a Rafale. It might discourage allies from buying a F-35 which is a bigger ticket for US.

 

[kursed]

PAF will depend upon standoff EW jamming, as well as podded-jamming and aerial decoys via JF Block II and J-10C to take on the Rafale in next 2 years. In addition to that, long range sticks will play a bigger role than AIM-120C in any next skirmish. Pakistan's order for WL2 is also coming with its own share of ELINT/ESM gear.

The next skirmish, whenever it takes place within a timeframe of 2 years or so - will be subcontinent's first true use of high-end EW gear b/w two near-peer air forces.

As far as taking hits are concerned, we were already ready for it the first time around too - but we won't go up in the air, not wanting to take the other side down.