JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[White and Green with M/S]

All in all Dual pulse rocket motors is not magical or new technologies this tech is from 60s, and you're looking to inspired Indian version of the Incident they claim 6-8 AMRAAM fired at various IAF targets and MKI DODGED IT as per PAF they fired only 2 AMRAAM both hit their targets, and if you want kill a target more than 50% you must fires BVR at NEZ

And as for your RD-93 and AESA issue you're contradict yourself, Its to Increase its performance not RANGE, and every fighter jets in the world have a difficulty to detect the enemy with its radar MAX RANGE, whether its F-22 or JFT

Why they never found wreckage of those 6 amraams they supposedly dodged?
[/QUOTE]
Because these were never fired, as per PAF they only fired 2 AMRAAM and both hit their targets, and remember sir this 6 AMRAAM firing conspiracy theory is the Indian version of the incident but unfortunately some Pakistani member do believe this conspiracy theory

 

[White and Green with M/S]

All in all Dual pulse rocket motors is not magical or new technologies this tech is from 60s, and you're looking to inspired Indian version of the Incident they claim 6-8 AMRAAM fired at various IAF targets and MKI DODGED IT as per PAF they fired only 2 AMRAAM both hit their targets, and if you want kill a target more than 50% you must fires BVR at NEZ

And as for your RD-93 and AESA issue you're contradict yourself, Its to Increase its performance not RANGE, and every fighter jets in the world have a difficulty to detect the enemy with its radar MAX RANGE, whether its F-22 or JFT

Bvr is not necessarily fired in NEZ who has taught you that ? Do you know anything about how it works ? If the opponent has a missile with similar range you don't wait for enemy to come in NEZ as you are also in your enemies NEZ ..... IF the enemy is in range so are you..... so how do you know a missile has been fired at you unless it goes pitbull so pilots assume that a missile has been fired and go defensive after taking the shot ....
About AESA and engine there is a thread on pdf on RD93MA you'll find all the info there I don't have time to find that post ...
[/QUOTE]
On 27 of FEB IAF had only basic version of R-77 with range of 80 KM whereas our F-16 have AMRAAM C-5 version with a better range (105 KM) that's why MKI weren't fired a single R-77 on US, and RAFALE has meteor (ramjet) which means it has a continuously powered throughout it flight envelop, its also means it has better end game kinematics of all of our BVRs (AMRAAM/SD-10) and has largest NEZ of all BVR (60 km) PL-15 is also using dual plus rocket motor to achieve 150-200 km range but end game kinematics of PL-15 is very poor because after expanded its dual pulse rocket motor its become glide weapon, at every turn and at every maneuvers it loses its energy too quickly

 

[Fighting Falcon 01]

Bvr is not necessarily fired in NEZ who has taught you that ? Do you know anything about how it works ? If the opponent has a missile with similar range you don't wait for enemy to come in NEZ as you are also in your enemies NEZ ..... IF the enemy is in range so are you..... so how do you know a missile has been fired at you unless it goes pitbull so pilots assume that a missile has been fired and go defensive after taking the shot ....
About AESA and engine there is a thread on pdf on RD93MA you'll find all the info there I don't have time to find that post ...

On 27 of FEB IAF had only basic version of R-77 with range of 80 KM whereas our F-16 have AMRAAM C-5 version with a better range (105 KM) that's why MKI weren't fired a single R-77 on US, and RAFALE has meteor (ramjet) which means it has a continuously powered throughout it flight envelop, its also means it has better end game kinematics of all of our BVRs (AMRAAM/SD-10) and has largest NEZ of all BVR (60 km) PL-15 is also using dual plus rocket motor to achieve 150-200 km range but end game kinematics of PL-15 is very poor because after expanded its dual pulse rocket motor its become glide weapon, at every turn and at every maneuvers it loses its energy too quickly
[/QUOTE]
No one said PL 15 will kill a fighter at 200km not simply possible fighter aircraft can easily evade it at that range ... however 130km to 150km is possible considering it is a newer modern day missile but two way datalinks and mid course guidance and AESA seeker makes it a capable missile one in the league of Aim 120D..... missile range alone won't decide the end result tactics and force multipliers will ..... a PL 15 heading towards enemy pilots at mach 4 is not easy to overlook they'll have to drop tanks and go evasive even if they know the missile has a less chance of hitting but you don't take chances when you are in a 110 million dollar machine therefore it's an edge..... if it won't kill them it will keep them away from our airspace that's the point.....

 

[ARMalik]

I just do not comprehend the argument that Jf-17 block-1 and Block-2 cannot to upgraded to Block-3 standard. They can be upgraded to about 90% of Block-3 standard. There is technically nothing stopping it. Just like F-16 can be upgraded to better blocks, JF-17 can be done as well without any problem. People need to understand the following basic stuff;

1- Concept of 'Blocks' in fighter jets, and how they can be updated.

2- JF-17 follows MIL-STD-1553 and other similar military standards. What this means technically that these standards define the characters of SERIAL DATA BUS related to Electrical, Mechanical and Functional characteristics. So what this does it allows lot of Avionics, electronics, electrical systems, HVAC/mechanical, controls systems, etc. to be SIMPLY PLUG AND PLAY in JF-17.

3- I find is amusing that people think that there needs to be some major modification to produce more power. Actually Generators in the power system are connected to voltage bus, meaning the bus voltage corresponds to the generator's voltage . The voltage bus is always OVER-SIZED just in case more power is required to a specific component. Due to advancement in technology, newer components related to electrical, mechanical etc. are MORE POWER EFFICIENT but still output a much HIGHER EFFICIENCY or COP. Moreover, newer technology allows for MUCH BETTER POWER MANAGEMENT TECHNOLOGY AND PRIORITIZATION.

Therefore, there is NOTHING STOPPING BLOCKS-1 AND 2 TO BE UPGRADED TO NEARLY BLOCK-3 STANDARD.

THANK YOU.

 

[White and Green with M/S]

On 27 of FEB IAF had only basic version of R-77 with range of 80 KM whereas our F-16 have AMRAAM C-5 version with a better range (105 KM) that's why MKI weren't fired a single R-77 on US, and RAFALE has meteor (ramjet) which means it has a continuously powered throughout it flight envelop, its also means it has better end game kinematics of all of our BVRs (AMRAAM/SD-10) and has largest NEZ of all BVR (60 km) PL-15 is also using dual plus rocket motor to achieve 150-200 km range but end game kinematics of PL-15 is very poor because after expanded its dual pulse rocket motor its become glide weapon, at every turn and at every maneuvers it loses its energy too quickly

No one said PL 15 will kill a fighter at 200km not simply possible fighter aircraft can easily evade it at that range ... however 130km to 150km is possible considering it is a newer modern day missile but two way datalinks and mid course guidance and AESA seeker makes it a capable missile one in the league of Aim 120D..... missile range alone won't decide the end result tactics and force multipliers will ..... a PL 15 heading towards enemy pilots at mach 4 is not easy to overlook they'll have to drop tanks and go evasive even if they know the missile has a less chance of hitting but you don't take chances when you are in a 110 million dollar machine therefore it's an edge..... if it won't kill them it will keep them away from our airspace that's the point.....
[/QUOTE]
Yeah that's the reasonable post but last part of your post i wont agree you, BVR is for kill not for wasting to deny the enemy and expanded These precious PL-15 in useless manner

 

[PakAlp]

PAF is on the right track, the jf17 block 3 is not even needed at the moment so if its delayed till early 2022 then we shouldn't have any issues, infact it will give PAF more time to test the new engine, AESA, and weapons.

Our F16 Blocks 52s are enough to deal with Rafale and upgraded F16s backed by 130+ Jf17 block 2 and B to deal with su30MKI and the rest.

 

[Mrc]

By the time block 3 production complete... Project azm shud start... Keep the factories running boys

 

[Bratva]

I just do not comprehend the argument that Jf-17 block-1 and Block-2 cannot to upgraded to Block-3 standard. They can be upgraded to about 90% of Block-3 standard. There is technically nothing stopping it. Just like F-16 can be upgraded to better blocks, JF-17 can be done as well without any problem. People need to understand the following basic stuff;

1- Concept of 'Blocks' in fighter jets, and how they can be updated.

2- JF-17 follows MIL-STD-1553 and other similar military standards. What this means technically that these standards define the characters of SERIAL DATA BUS related to Electrical, Mechanical and Functional characteristics. So what this does it allows lot of Avionics, electronics, electrical systems, HVAC/mechanical, controls systems, etc. to be SIMPLY PLUG AND PLAY in JF-17.

3- I find is amusing that people think that there needs to be some major modification to produce more power. Actually Generators in the power system are connected to voltage bus, meaning the bus voltage corresponds to the generator's voltage . The voltage bus is always OVER-SIZED just in case more power is required to a specific component. Due to advancement in technology, newer components related to electrical, mechanical etc. are MORE POWER EFFICIENT but still output a much HIGHER EFFICIENCY or COP. Moreover, newer technology allows for MUCH BETTER POWER MANAGEMENT TECHNOLOGY AND PRIORITIZATION.

Therefore, there is NOTHING STOPPING BLOCKS-1 AND 2 TO BE UPGRADED TO NEARLY BLOCK-3 STANDARD.

THANK YOU.

You need to understand that Electronic Warfare and AESA radar both are integrated with each other in Block-3 in order for EW to work optimally. in 2017, News came from china that They successfully designed the internal plumbing for Block-3 for EW systems. Have you seen any outward EW on BLOCK-III? No because they are under the skin and integrated properly with AESA Radar. Both are of chinese origin

When they say Block-1 and 2 cant be upgraded to Block-III standard, they are completly right. The EW systems in Block-1 and 2 are of spanish origin and you want to install a Chinese Aesa radar which cant be integrated with Spanish EW? Not to mention the Internal plumbing for AESA or EW systems that was done for Block-III.

It is not feasible to Upgrade Block-1 and 2. Block-III is based on B version of JF-17. Length is increased which let the fuel capacity and additional elements to be installed in it. . How would you accommodate that in Block-1 and 2?

 

[ARMalik]

You need to understand that Electronic Warfare and AESA radar both are integrated with each other in Block-3 in order for EW to work optimally. in 2017, News came from china that They successfully designed the internal plumbing for Block-3 for EW systems. Have you seen any outward EW on BLOCK-III? No because they are under the skin and integrated properly with AESA Radar. Both are of chinese origin

When they say Block-1 and 2 cant be upgraded to Block-III standard, they are completly right. The EW systems in Block-1 and 2 are of spanish origin and you want to install a Chinese Aesa radar in which cant be integrated with Spanish EW? Not to mention the Internal plumbing for AESA or EW systems that was done for Block-III.

It is not feasible to Upgrade Block-1 and 2. Block-III is based on B version of JF-17. Length is increased which let the fuel capacity and additional elements to be installed in it. . How would you accommodate that in Block-1 and 2?

Yes Integrated AESA/EW suite for Block-3 only, however, these two components can exist as separate components for Block-1 and 2 and will do exactly the same function. And seriously, why a Chinese AESA radar can't be integrated aka able to talk with a Spanish EW?? Are you an engineer? If NOT then you won't understand basic integration principles and standards.

 

[RAMPAGE]

IMO, the bulges on both sides of dorsal are CFT, if one notice the air refueling probe is seems to be just placed very near to the bulge in right hand side - so the hard points for external fuel tanks could be used for additional weapons.
The biting teeths of JF-17 seems to be growing.

Those are air intakes. They have always been there.

 

[RAMPAGE]

You need to understand that Electronic Warfare and AESA radar both are integrated with each other in Block-3 in order for EW to work optimally. in 2017, News came from china that They successfully designed the internal plumbing for Block-3 for EW systems. Have you seen any outward EW on BLOCK-III? No because they are under the skin and integrated properly with AESA Radar. Both are of chinese origin

When they say Block-1 and 2 cant be upgraded to Block-III standard, they are completly right. The EW systems in Block-1 and 2 are of spanish origin and you want to install a Chinese Aesa radar in which cant be integrated with Spanish EW? Not to mention the Internal plumbing for AESA or EW systems that was done for Block-III.

It is not feasible to Upgrade Block-1 and 2. Block-III is based on B version of JF-17. Length is increased which let the fuel capacity and additional elements to be installed in it. . How would you accommodate that in Block-1 and 2?

There is a chance that the previous blocks would eventually be upgraded in-house with the upgrade systems, of Chinese or non-Chinese origin, customised for the existing airframes. This may be a locally developed upgrade.

 

[StormBreaker]

We will have to treat such an upgrade in different manners. One cannot call it an upgrade for everything that Block-III. Indeed, we will be looking at upgraded Block-III from Block-II in quality area and especially in the areas of Radar & weapons to the most of extent. Since, airframes are different, therefore, the then older Block-II will not be a 100% Block-III but one can count on the same level in the ring once all hell broke lose. Remember, Thunder design was frozen year(s) ago but it had the quality of adaptation from day one hence, we saw an upgrade of Block-I to Block-II. I hope you got my point that I wish I could express more openly but not at the moment.

The Airframe has the flexibility, therefore, you may have noticed that how Thunder's development & evolution has been coined in the same terms of F-16 fighting falcon baseline & then even we expect a viper upgrade despite the airframe being the older one. Conclusively & for a layman like me, as I am still learning certain things, most of aspects & criteria are never told nor shared to the world at all.

Similarly, we can expect an air-cooled LKF-601E (AESA) for older blocks given the limitation due to size of nosecone but on the same time it doesn't limits the aircraft to perform lesser than the newly built Block-III with KLJ7A AESA Radar. On one point you have a shortcoming in specific bird but on other hand, you have an alternate solution to compensate the shortcoming and in this scenario, putting it simply, remember the netcentric capability. For this point alone, at-least I am very sure that Pakistan is far ahead than the adversary and despite being a rich spending, IAF needs years to catch-up with PAF that already excelling more.

In couple of years or plus 1/2, we will see a totally different structure of Pakistan Armed Forces and especially in Electronics related area. I can imagine a flying castle. In'Sha'ALLAH.


IF AN UPGRADE IS DONE, I don't see it ending up in short like that. Though, it may have a different gadget beneath the skin with differently told specs etc but still, in the end with a different game plan, tactics & deployment; the end result will be a totally upgraded Block-III fleet. That mark will always remain there as the airframe will be quoted as an older block but capability wise, nothing different or short of punch.

What’s the update of F-16s ? Any good hopes for them after biden ? No (Yes/No) answers, just hint would be enough.

 

[The Eagle]

What’s the update of F-16s ?

Still on table.

Any good hopes for them after biden ?

Depends upon what US want under Biden.... awaiting. Mujooda Sharayat achi nahi.... aur un ko bhi pata ha.... parties involved tried to play game of ask much more than what can be done so either side will settle for standard. Interestingly, our boys have learnt a lot in regard to deal with US and..........and.... couple of areas that gave us a bit of ideal environment/case but still, let's see. Only if @Raider 21 has to add further or tell something else.

 

[Fighting Falcon 01]

There is a chance that the previous blocks would eventually be upgraded in-house with the upgrade systems, of Chinese or non-Chinese origin, customised for the existing airframes. This may be a locally developed upgrade.

Yes it is possible that PAC will come up with a local upgrade they were making an AESA radar and bvr but nothing is revealed yet maybe it will happen after block 3 production is completed...

 

[Bratva]

Yes Integrated AESA/EW suite for Block-3 only, however, these two components can exist as separate components for Block-1 and 2 and will do exactly the same function. And seriously, why a Chinese AESA radar can't be integrated aka able to talk with a Spanish EW?? Are you an engineer? If NOT then you won't understand basic integration principles and standards.

Yes I'm an Engineer. Yes I'm a system integrator. Yes I do know basic Integration principles and standards because this is my bread and butter hence I can say with certainty that

Whatever you've written in the post is not how things works. Why?

1. EW and Radar has to be integrated to get the most optimal result. If they exist as 2 different components you are wasting and underutilizing your components and not getting the best out of your component. Just like the HMD and 5th Gen AIM-9x or PL-10. without HMD you gonna get a sub optimal result and wont get the full functionality out of it.

2. As I understand Spanish EW and KLJ-7 radar in block-1 and 2 are integrated to a Central Unit, through which they display their info on MFD and pilots decide how best to apply EW and in which direction to get the optimal result

2.5. Do you know what are the protocols? It is language used by 2 systems to talk to each other. Does Pakistan has Language aka source code of Spanish EW to integrate it to Chinese Radar? No it isn't. Hence the reason Pakistan didnt go for western EW and Chinese Radar in Block-3. Both Radar and EW are of chinese origin so they can be integrated.

Once both EW and Radar are integrated now you are able to deploy EW efficiently in a way where your radar is telling you precisely the coordinates and directon to deploy the EW to effectively degrade the Enemy radar

Hence the reason, Pakistan is reluctant to go to Chinese Air cooled Radar For Block 2. Because of the precise Integration issues with spanish EW systems.