JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[TheTallGuy]

by the way there is some secrecy surrounding this project....

radar thats chosen has never been publically displayed even as a mock up

my dear friend, at the end of they Chinese companies are doing business. if they have a product ready they will market it..just like KLJ7A or LFK601 they are working prototypes ....ready for promotion and sales.

I think PAF is funding the development of KLJ7 air cooled version and (TOT) that has caused delay.

you don't select a radar that's not a ready product simple...how do we know that radar is not ready??? and if radar is not ready how the heck we are having electrical supply problems???

both are contradictory... either radar is ready or there is not electrical supply problem

whats not ready today may not be ready for 10 years....

example of Grifo M3 when 1996-2002 it took make it operational.

electrical supply was related to RD93 having enough juice to power aesa and avionics and new FCS.

 

[Mrc]

my dear friend, at the end of they Chinese companies are doing business. if they have a product ready they will market it..just like KLJ7A or LFK601 they are working prototypes ....ready for promotion and sales.

I think PAF is funding the development of KLJ7 air cooled version and (TOT) that has caused delay.




example of Grifo M3 when 1996-2002 it took make it operational.

electrical supply was related to RD93 having enough juice to power aesa and avionics and new FCS.

Some things in thunder 3 may not be for sale... Lets just leave it at that

 

[PakShaheen79]

If engine is still in testing phase then I think time table has been logically stretched till 2022-23 for induction of Block-III in active squadron service. May be PAF is looking at J-31 as a stop gap after the arrival of Rafale and giving due time to Block III to get matured. In this scenario, limited number of J-31 might be added to make new weapons like PL-15 operational with max potential in range to deter Indian possible designs after induction of Meteor/Rafale combo.

 

[ziaulislam]

RD-93MA Engine, to Power Pakistan JF-17 Block III Jets, Enters Thermal Chamber Tests

• Our Bureau
  
• 01:58 PM, July 8, 2020
  
• 472

RD-93MA engine (for JF-17 Jet) Undergoing Tests
A new engine for the Pakistani JF-17 fighter jet, dubbed RD-93MA being developed by Russia’s United Engine Corporation (UEC)-Klimov has entered thermal chamber tests to confirm high-speed characteristics in simulated flight conditions.

The RD-93MA has been specifically developed to power single engine light fighter jets. It is an upgrade of the RD-93 engine which currently powers the Pakistani JF-17/Chinese Chengdu FC-1 single engine fighter jets.

With the successful completion of the thermal chamber test stage, it will be possible to proceed to flight design tests. A set of tests in the TsIAM large thermal pressure chamber will be held as part of the experimental design work on the RD-93MA, a UEC statement said today.

During the tests, the engine will simulate conditions as close as possible to actual flight. Here, the BARK-93MA, the automatic control system of the engine, designed and manufactured at UEC-Klimov, will also be put to test.

The thrust of the RD-93MA is expected to 9300 Kgf compared to 8300 kgf of the RD-93, a significant bump-up in power which will help the JF-17/FC-1 to carry more armaments and fly at a higher speed (this information is not from UEC but earlier published sources).

“The RD-93MA engine is distinguished by improved operational characteristics, increased thermodynamic parameters, a larger fan and an upgraded automatic power plant control system. The main engine parameters are also enhanced- the assigned resource and thrust, an emergency engine start mode is provided, and the possibility of emergency fuel drain is realized.” the statement said.

JF-17 Thunder Aircraft of Pakistan Air Force
“All this is due to the specifics associated with the possible use of the power plant on a single-engine aircraft, which entails additional safety requirements,” the statement added leaving no doubt as to its potential applications for an foreign customer as Russia does not possess a single-engine fighter jet.

“The start of testing was preceded by a long preparatory phase. During 2018-2019 design documentation was handed over to manufacturing plants, production was organized in a new cooperation structure, engine models of the RD-93MA were developed and a new engine "harness" was manufactured. In addition, tests of the VK-100-1MK turbo-starter in the TsIAM heat chamber according to confirmation of high-altitude launch were conducted. Prototypes of the BARK-93MA (automatic engine control system) were made and much more,” the statement said.

The JF-17 block III, a highly advanced version of the JF-17 Block II, was test flown for the first time at the start of this year. Besides the engine, the key upgrade is an AESA- Active electronically scanning array- radar which has already been selected from a Chinese manufacturer.

Earlier reports said the RD-93MA engine will be directly sold to Pakistan. However, sources told defenseworld.net that the engine upgrade work is under contract from a Chinese company for which over 100 such engines is to be manufactured.

The engine is expected to enter fight test mode towards the end of the year which means the JF-17 Block III would enter flight tests with the RD-93MA engine sometime in 2021-22 at the earliest.

how reliable this new is?
would be a massive boast, i am more interested in its dry thrust

UEC is indeed testing an engine called 'RD-93MA'.

However, I don't think it'll make its way to the Block-III. The PAF froze the Block-III's design, so pivoting to the RD-93MA at this stage would mean pushing the project back 1-2 years. UEC itself is saying they've yet to carry out flight tests.

OTOH, if the PAF opts for a Block-IV, it could slot in the RD-93MA.

Likewise, the RD-93MA could also an option for the FGFA/AZM/FC-31.

07/08/2020
The new engine for the development of the UEC will be tested in a thermal chamber TsIAM

The RD-93MA engine was shipped from St. Petersburg to Moscow. The power plant of the UEC-Klimov development (part of the United Engine Corporation of Rostec State Corporation) will have to confirm the high-speed characteristics in the conditions of flight simulation at the stand of the P.I. Baranova (TsIAM).

A set of tests in the TsIAM large thermal pressure chamber will be held as part of the experimental design work on the RD-93MA. During tests for the engine conditions will be simulated as close as possible to flight. The operation of the automatic control system of the BARK-93MA engine, also designed and manufactured at JSC UEC-Klimov, will be tested.

Upon successful completion of this stage, permission will be obtained for flight design tests.

The beginning of the tests was preceded by a long preparatory phase. During 2018-2019 design documentation was issued and handed over to manufacturing plants, production was organized in a new cooperation structure, engine models of the RD-93MA and KSA-54M were made, a new engine "harness" was designed and manufactured, tests of the VK-100-1MK turbostarter in the TsIAM thermo-chamber according to confirmation of high-altitude launch, prototypes BARK-93MA and IDK-93MA were made and much more. Immediately before sending the engine for testing, UEC specialists prepared and tested all the necessary equipment for connecting the engine to the test bench.

RD-93MA is a new aircraft engine developed by JSC "UEC-Klimov". The power plant in addition to the engine includes an automatic control system BARK-93MA and a box of aircraft units KSA-54M.

The RD-93MA engine has improved performance. In particular, increased thermodynamic parameters, an improved design of the fan and the hot part, an upgraded automatic power plant control system. The main indicators are also increased - the assigned resource and traction. An additional emergency engine start mode was provided in the air and the possibility of emergency fuel drain was realized. All this is due to the specifics associated with the possible use of the power plant on a single-engine aircraft, which entails additional safety requirements.

https://www.uecrus.com/rus/presscenter/odk_news/?ELEMENT_ID=3280​

well not a bad idea to push to block IV but I hope PAF makes all the investment it needs now, including CFTs and exploring additional hard points

 

[Thorough Pro]

Correct, some just take wild swings..

JF-17 is an unstable design from the beginning.

 

[Safriz]

how reliable this new is?
would be a massive boast, i am more interested in its dry thrust


well not a bad idea to push to block IV but I hope PAF makes all the investment it needs now, including CFTs and exploring additional hard points

Its an 8% increase in Thrust. Not a massive boost but significant.

 

[Thorough Pro]

The name "RD-93MA" was not coined by fanboys, it came directly from the manufacturer, not because they just dreamed it.

People who knew/needed to know knew!

There were no cats and bags involved, just the usual cloak of silence.

The real cat out of the bag is, how did this news came out before the functional engine itself?

Now things are opening up and dare i say cats out of the bag! @SQ8 @Chak Bamu @Thorough Pro

It flew with the existing engine. Most developmental work happens in parallel, you can't afford (time-wise) for everything to follow a linear path.

it did fly in November 2019 with an engine i suspect.


may i dare as well to say the photos and video you saw labelled as first test flight were actually....not first flight.. for one simple reason.....no body in world would dare to bring such a crowd for them to see the plane fail to fly or crash....it has been flying for couple of months at that point its safe to assume

1000/8300= 12.05%
additional weight carrying capacity or the speed would increase by more than 12% subject to other (non-power) limitations

Its an 8% increase in Thrust. Not a massive boost but significant.

 

[ziaulislam]

Its an 8% increase in Thrust. Not a massive boost but significant.

what many people dont realize is that what really matters is the dry thrust.
as far as i remember the dry thrust of rd 93 base model is around 49, so if they bump it up even to 56 (quoted for ws13) that is a good 14% increase, this along with new FADEC will increase range of jf17 significantly.

afterburners arent employed normally by fighter jets unless its dashing..so that isnt the thrust that matters

even if its 8% increase in thrust, couple that with FADEC, it will really push the thunder into the light to medium from the super-light category

 

[Thorough Pro]

Feezing the design does not mean they froze it at RD93. It just means no more changes (wish lists) to already communicated "must-have capabilities" so the actual design/production can start.

UEC is indeed testing an engine called 'RD-93MA'.

However, I don't think it'll make its way to the Block-III. The PAF froze the Block-III's design, so pivoting to the RD-93MA at this stage would mean pushing the project back 1-2 years. UEC itself is saying they've yet to carry out flight tests.

OTOH, if the PAF opts for a Block-IV, it could slot in the RD-93MA.

Likewise, the RD-93MA could also an option for the FGFA/AZM/FC-31.

07/08/2020
The new engine for the development of the UEC will be tested in a thermal chamber TsIAM

The RD-93MA engine was shipped from St. Petersburg to Moscow. The power plant of the UEC-Klimov development (part of the United Engine Corporation of Rostec State Corporation) will have to confirm the high-speed characteristics in the conditions of flight simulation at the stand of the P.I. Baranova (TsIAM).

A set of tests in the TsIAM large thermal pressure chamber will be held as part of the experimental design work on the RD-93MA. During tests for the engine conditions will be simulated as close as possible to flight. The operation of the automatic control system of the BARK-93MA engine, also designed and manufactured at JSC UEC-Klimov, will be tested.

Upon successful completion of this stage, permission will be obtained for flight design tests.

The beginning of the tests was preceded by a long preparatory phase. During 2018-2019 design documentation was issued and handed over to manufacturing plants, production was organized in a new cooperation structure, engine models of the RD-93MA and KSA-54M were made, a new engine "harness" was designed and manufactured, tests of the VK-100-1MK turbostarter in the TsIAM thermo-chamber according to confirmation of high-altitude launch, prototypes BARK-93MA and IDK-93MA were made and much more. Immediately before sending the engine for testing, UEC specialists prepared and tested all the necessary equipment for connecting the engine to the test bench.

RD-93MA is a new aircraft engine developed by JSC "UEC-Klimov". The power plant in addition to the engine includes an automatic control system BARK-93MA and a box of aircraft units KSA-54M.

The RD-93MA engine has improved performance. In particular, increased thermodynamic parameters, an improved design of the fan and the hot part, an upgraded automatic power plant control system. The main indicators are also increased - the assigned resource and traction. An additional emergency engine start mode was provided in the air and the possibility of emergency fuel drain was realized. All this is due to the specifics associated with the possible use of the power plant on a single-engine aircraft, which entails additional safety requirements.

https://www.uecrus.com/rus/presscenter/odk_news/?ELEMENT_ID=3280​

 

[Safriz]

People are totally relying on what a certain defense news websites says.
The Russian defence contract website says otherwise.
Biggest news is that the Russian manufacturer Kilmanov is contracted to produce 400 units of RD-93MA and all are for JF-17.
Make sense of that.

 

[GriffinsRule]

The link is from an Indian source so I will not buy it yet without other sources confirming it as well. However, it does make sense and fits in with what people have been saying about the engine for a while.

Also, swapping the upgraded engine should not prove to be any challenge if the dimensions are the same. Its not a brand new design but an update of an existing one. GE and PW engines powering the F-16 have gone through many of these updates as well. In fact this sort of an update was over due for the RD-33 anyways. Most of the tech was already developed and tested with the RD-33MK. The RM will work on top of that and should not take too long of a development cycle hopefully

 

[volatile]

People are totally relying on what a certain defense news websites says.
The Russian defence contract website says otherwise.
Biggest news is that the Russian manufacturer Kilmanov is contracted to produce 400 units of RD-93MA and all are for JF-17.
Make sense of that.

please share link

 

[Armchair]

What are the basic goals of Block 3
1. it has same air-frame. a bit more composites ....lighter but same
2. it has has same RD93/RD93MA (I editing this post after below article which provides details that RD93MA is not even in production)
3. It has now Fly by light
4.Newer avionics and ESM/ECM
5. Newer radar which no body has seen..Air Cooled KLJ-7 AESA (Possible issue of delay)
6. Once a new radar is operational/ready to us (i dont know but i hope it does not become Grifo M3 type situation where it took 4 years to get it fully operational as per specs)
7. To have a viable platform to fully "please note FULLY" utillise the PL15E envelope.

what else i am missing....??




My dear, he was talking about KAMRA not chengdu.

Well, the main assembly plant is in Kamra. In batch production, you basically start with putting subassemblies together in one place - there is no assembly line like a car factory. This means that the machines are being built - surely, if the aircraft wasn't ready, or if there was a COVID scare in Chengdu that stopped production, that would not be the case.

To make the design unstable, all that is needed is to move the CoG a bit behind, and to have the quadruplex controls to manage the change. Since the latter is confirmed, the former seems likely. Additionally, the amount of time that the development took -8 years suggests more than a minor change.

Essentially, we are seeing in the block 3 all the things coming together, other than the airframe and engine of a 5th gen aircraft - i.e. a Rafale like capability.

 

[The Raven]

To make the design unstable, all that is needed is to move the CoG a bit behind, and to have the quadruplex controls to manage the change. Since the latter is confirmed, the former seems likely. Additionally, the amount of time that the development took -8 years suggests more than a minor change.

It's a little more complicated than that, to put it mildly, you have absolutely no clue about FCS and flight laws.

 

[Deino]

It's a little more complicated than that, to put it mildly, you have absolutely no clue about FCS and flight laws.

I would go even a bit further ... but since he blocked me and ignores any questions it is anyway useless to try to get an argument from him.

Best.