JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[Armchair]

Any indication the Block III variant will employ selective RAM coatings or baked in RAM panels to decrease the RCS further. While the jet has a small RCS, if the RCS can be lowered further, it may force the enemy to have to come closer to use their BVR missiles, allow the JF-17 to have a higher probability of a kill when the enemy jet is more likely to be in its missile’s No Escape Zone.

In the same vein, possibly fitting the jet for a retractable refueling probe would also help lower the RCS and improve the pilots field of view

Perhaps Block III may not feature these elements, but they should be considered for a future upgrade. They could come out of the R&D efforts from Project AZM, and using them on the JF-17 will the improve that jet, while helping our scientists and engineers to get the technology right for project AZM.

An additional benefit is that it will be harder for the active seeker of BVR missiles to see the aircraft, meaning they will have a lower pk (lower probability of hit).

 

[FuturePAF]

The cost of the plane will exponemtially go up. The cobham retractable probe if memory serve me right would have added 200000$ to the price. The other thing to remember is that the major contributors to your radar visibility are the missiles and fuel tanks. What are we goig to do with those? However as a part of future upgrade it is worth considering .
A

Adding conformal fuel tanks (which will lower the drag compared to standard fuel tanks) can be coating with Ram or made with Ram panels. Missile pylons can also be costing in ram as well as shaped to reduce their RCS, as seen on the F-35 pylons; tapered at a shallow angle. Perhaps a smaller BVR missile like the Cuda could could fit inside a stealth pod. While longer range BVR could fit under the center of the fuselage in a recessed position. Wing tip WVR missile could fit in an enclosed container. While some of all of these maybe too expensive for the JF-17 at the moment, they could be considering in whole or part in the future if the budget increases and we decide we need to squeeze more capability out of the JF-17s

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p...3aarliKb3HMm8t0KRiEF90CIKujMs2QZld6lcLqfl4QWg

http://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=227784#227784

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/540361655260918563/

 

[Trailer23]

I wish we had some footage or updates on our Block III.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1258758638379896836

 

[Armchair]

Unfortunately due to the sensitive environment right now, it may be best if we didn't get any info or photos. This will keep India guessing if PAF actually managed to produce something or not and if they are in squadron service or otherwise.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Any indication the Block III variant will employ selective RAM coatings or baked in RAM panels to decrease the RCS further. While the jet has a small RCS, if the RCS can be lowered further, it may force the enemy to have to come closer to use their BVR missiles, allow the JF-17 to have a higher probability of a kill when the enemy jet is more likely to be in its missile’s No Escape Zone.

In the same vein, possibly fitting the jet for a retractable refueling probe would also help lower the RCS and improve the pilots field of view

Perhaps Block III may not feature these elements, but they should be considered for a future upgrade. They could come out of the R&D efforts from Project AZM, and using them on the JF-17 will the improve that jet, while helping our scientists and engineers to get the technology right for project AZM.

A huge part of the RCS is the weapons/fuel tanks hanging off of a jet...which is why all stealth jets have internal bays. So trying to have RAM coatings or shaping to increase stealth is kind of useless and an unnecessary cost if the weapons/fuel tanks are still gonna be hanging off of it.

 

[Safriz]

A huge part of the RCS is the weapons/fuel tanks hanging off of a jet...which is why all stealth jets have internal bays. So trying to have RAM coatings or shaping to increase stealth is kind of useless and an unnecessary cost if the weapons/fuel tanks are still gonna be hanging off of it.

In a war , every little helps.
Radar detection depends on the aspect of the target .
If the RAM coated surfaces are facing the radar, detection will be difficult.

 

[Cookie Monster]

In a war , every little helps.
Radar detection depends on the aspect of the target .
If the RAM coated surfaces are facing the radar, detection will be difficult.

Yes but with weapons hanging from it...they present a signature from the front...sides...and back...so again my point stands
...the cost involved is not worth the return

Pakistan is not an extremely rich nation. The money that is spent on defense needs requires careful considerations...cost vs benefit. It is the same thing we see in Pak opting to spend money on building jets(JF17) as opposed to using that money to acquire something like FD2000. It's not that air defense systems are not needed...it's rather that a fighter jet can be used to defend the skies while also serving as an offensive asset. So it's all about prioritizing...
...I'm not against using stealth coatings or anything...just like I'm not against air defense assets...but we can't ignore the cost vs benefit analysis.

 

[FuturePAF]

A huge part of the RCS is the weapons/fuel tanks hanging off of a jet...which is why all stealth jets have internal bays. So trying to have RAM coatings or shaping to increase stealth is kind of useless and an unnecessary cost if the weapons/fuel tanks are still gonna be hanging off of it.

Tucking BVR missiles along the centerline and using conformal fuel tanks may make a noticeable difference in terms of RCS and Drag. It may not be enough to lower the design to that of a stealth fighter, but on an already small fighter with say an RCS of 1, lowering it to 0.5 will require an enemy aircraft to be 4 times closer to detect it. That just maybe enough to evade the benefits of systems like Meteor and bring the enemy aircraft into within the no escape zone of our missiles. Further more, a lower RCS will allow our jets to operate closer to enemy S-400 batteries without being detected.

These RAM coatings are indeed expensive, hence Why I say they should be studied. a Cost-Benefit analysis definitely needs to be done. If we already spending over $30 million per Block III aircraft, we should consider these further potential upgrades in terms of securing our qualitative edge.
as more stealth applications become available among our allies nations, we may be able to acquire modern stealth coating at a reasonable price, so the price should be expected to keep coming down as more stealth jets come off the production line in China.

Here is how even more RAM is being used on the Block III F-18 over the Block II F-18 to reduce the RCS a further 10%.
https://www.defensenews.com/digital.../09/how-stealthy-is-boeings-new-super-hornet/

P.S. also see my earlier post; where the F-35’s external pylons have a lowered RCS design, as well as the future Rafale wing tip pods for WVR missiles. Coupling this with allowing the jet to carry conformal fuel tanks can go along way to reduce the RCS and Drag.

 

[GumNaam]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1258430317213466624

 

[Invictus.inc]

Unfortunately due to the sensitive environment right now, it may be best if we didn't get any info or photos. This will keep India guessing if PAF actually managed to produce something or not and if they are in squadron service or otherwise.

Lol
As if the indians rely on info from PDF!
Anything posted on this forum is public Knowledge already
The rest is just pure guess work from members without little inside knowledge
If we all knew more this forum would be as good as dead
If NADRA DATA is available on black web for sale....If our freaking ex DG MO is a mole
I assure you the indians know what asset's are deployed where & in what configuration
Plus JF-17 ain't a super stealthy intergalactic invisible spy plane that's going to wipe out the entire IAF fleet with a single BVR so everybody calm down

 

[Armchair]

Lol
As if the indians rely on info from PDF!
Anything posted on this forum is public Knowledge already
The rest is just pure guess work from members without little inside knowledge
If we all knew more this forum would be as good as dead
If NADRA DATA is available on black web for sale....If our freaking ex DG MO is a mole
I assure you the indians know what asset's are deployed where & in what configuration
Plus JF-17 ain't a super stealthy intergalactic invisible spy plane that's going to wipe out the entire IAF fleet with a single BVR so everybody calm down

They don't have to look at PDF. If the PAF releases pictures and photos, they will not only come to PDF my dear child, PDF is not the world. There is a bigger world outside. In that world, when those photos and info go out, Indians, being human beings just like you and me, will find them and use them to gauge capability.

This recently happened in Libya which lead to the death of a number of GNA personnel. Photos and info can cost lives. Not that it will happen exactly like that for PAF. But if PAF had a choice, they would prefer not to show their cards.

As for your assurances, I'm sure you are a big shot who knows all things, but it is hard to take someone who starts a post with a "lol" seriously.

 

[Deino]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1258430317213466624

Wrong thread ... nit related to Block 3, already discussed so often and IMO a misinterpretation of these pods. See my reply at Twitter.

 

[CHI RULES]

Unfortunately due to the sensitive environment right now, it may be best if we didn't get any info or photos. This will keep India guessing if PAF actually managed to produce something or not and if they are in squadron service or otherwise.

Sir base on circumstances and budget constraints one should not think of any sudden surprises, as so far pics reveal almost same jet and experts are of the view that it shall have following gadgets AESA, PL-15, probably podded IRST, probable next gen high off bore WVR missile. The more use of composites is clearly there.
The other areas are so far hidden.
1. Any engine upgrade/replacement ( minor chances)
2. Stealth feature enhancements i.e RAM coatings, retractable refueling probe ( RAM coatings may be but other one nearly no chances). The factors like casings for Missiles are far flung, zero chances.
3. The real challenge shall be the ECM/defensive capabilities of jet. No compromise regarding cost or quality should be made.

As per my findings the Rafael shall be main threat for PAF along with combo of SU-30 upgraded/ Mirage 2000. They shall certainly have changed/improved features from previous year encounter i.e upgraded AESA radars, encrypted/secured communication and far better BVRs, WVRs along with improved defensive capabilities certainly in case of Rafael, spectra is there which has some secretive features as well. So PAF may not have advantages like previous year i.e full jamming of Radars and communication, the BVR range advantage and better defensive capabilities against fired BVRS/WVRs along with counter firing of better range/capable BVRs/WVRs.

What Pak should do in JF17.
1- The defensive system should be as much near to Spectra as possible i.e we have support of Leonardo/Italians in this regard.
2-Irst may play a role so should be there but capable one.
3-The substantial measures should be there to further reduce RCS to improve survival, cost shall be there but may be possible in case of two to three first line squadrons prepared specifically to face Rafael.

In first stage perhaps the AESA radar is in testing with prototype and other selected systems shall be tested till first quarter of 2021.

 

[ARMalik]

You won't hear too much on Block-III but it will change in the next 3 to 6 months. Just like almost a dozen B-models appeared all of a sudden, you will hear news of Block-IIIs.

 

[Armchair]

Sir base on circumstances and budget constraints one should not think of any sudden surprises, as so far pics reveal almost same jet and experts are of the view that it shall have following gadgets AESA, PL-15, probably podded IRST, probable next gen high off bore WVR missile. The more use of composites is clearly there.
The other areas are so far hidden.
1. Any engine upgrade/replacement ( minor chances)
2. Stealth feature enhancements i.e RAM coatings, retractable refueling probe ( RAM coatings may be but other one nearly no chances). The factors like casings for Missiles are far flung, zero chances.
3. The real challenge shall be the ECM/defensive capabilities of jet. No compromise regarding cost or quality should be made.

As per my findings the Rafael shall be main threat for PAF along with combo of SU-30 upgraded/ Mirage 2000. They shall certainly have changed/improved features from previous year encounter i.e upgraded AESA radars, encrypted/secured communication and far better BVRs, WVRs along with improved defensive capabilities certainly in case of Rafael, spectra is there which has some secretive features as well. So PAF may not have advantages like previous year i.e full jamming of Radars and communication, the BVR range advantage and better defensive capabilities against fired BVRS/WVRs along with counter firing of better range/capable BVRs/WVRs.

What Pak should do in JF17.
1- The defensive system should be as much near to Spectra as possible i.e we have support of Leonardo/Italians in this regard.
2-Irst may play a role so should be there but capable one.
3-The substantial measures should be there to further reduce RCS to improve survival, cost shall be there but may be possible in case of two to three first line squadrons prepared specifically to face Rafael.

In first stage perhaps the AESA radar is in testing with prototype and other selected systems shall be tested till first quarter of 2021.

Respected brother, I think there are no big surprises about systems but rather about speed of induction and operationalization. A photo will not show an AESA or its quality. What it will show is that PAF has x number of aircraft in operational use. That would allow the Indians to plan accordingly.

This is important as the Block III is the only aircraft that will be able to use the PL-15 to its full advantage. Basically, a PAF vs. IAF clash will turn into a turkey shoot.


In terms of OSINT, I would be able to predict how many the PAF has in service if I see the picture of even a single Block III - As PAC Kamra produces aircraft in batches, a single aircraft would indicate an entire batch being operational. That is 16-25 aircraft.