JF-17 Block-3 -- Updates, News & Discussion

[MastanKhan]

Dont know how you imagined I said anything about purchasing rafales... I specifically stated we should have expanded on manufactering the jf-17 program. So much time wasted where we could have shown a lot more similar to our nuclear and missile program. Jf-17 is definatly an achievement but one must learn from huge mistakes made.

Are you aware of the maintenace cost for 60 year old mirages? for Gods sake we are spending money on used mirages from Egypt. Our general have simply failed with the vision they have given. Our air marshal is also the ceo of PIA airlines. We are not short of talent, we are short of leaders with a vision. JF-17 project started with northrop gruman super 7 project in the 80's mind you...

From the saga of wanting to purchase 75 new f-16s, to new mirage 2000's, to new super cobras, to new turkish attack helis, new rooivalks, new j-10s etc we have seen it all int he last 3 decades and all we have to show is 110 jf-17s??? fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me fool me 3-4-5-6 times then...

Hi,

You want to squeeze juice out of a lemon that has been squeezed a long time ago---. You are looking for shame in people who are shameless---all they can say is a lack of funds---.

They have no strategy---no game plan---no tactics finding funds from somewhere---.

They are so stupid that they think that they should develop their economy and then they will have funds for all these weapons---and by saying so---they are suggesting that the world is stupid and will let them stabilize and get better off to buy weapons to start a war---.

This is the brilliant pakistan---and this is what brilliant Think Tank members suggest here---and everybody's Abbaji and Nana Ji and dada Ji and Chacha ji including Chacha Dhakkan and Mama Makhan suggest as well---.

Why is the JF17 delayed---because there was no engine---and there was no EW package as well----.

 

[RangeMaster]

Dont know how you imagined I said anything about purchasing rafales... I specifically stated we should have expanded on manufactering the jf-17 program. So much time wasted where we could have shown a lot more similar to our nuclear and missile program. Jf-17 is definatly an achievement but one must learn from huge mistakes made.

Are you aware of the maintenace cost for 60 year old mirages? for Gods sake we are spending money on used mirages from Egypt. Our general have simply failed with the vision they have given. Our air marshal is also the ceo of PIA airlines. We are not short of talent, we are short of leaders with a vision. JF-17 project started with northrop gruman super 7 project in the 80's mind you...

From the saga of wanting to purchase 75 new f-16s, to new mirage 2000's, to new super cobras, to new turkish attack helis, new rooivalks, new j-10s etc we have seen it all int he last 3 decades and all we have to show is 110 jf-17s??? fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me fool me 3-4-5-6 times then...

Grumman left after sanctions. The project took off after 1995 when Mikhoyan and CAC joined.
Some of your concerns are right. As the initial order of JF17 was 250 which was reduced to 188. Blk 3 faced delays and many here said some of the features were compromised for blk 3 due to financial restrictions.....etc.
Good thing about joint venture is its always followed by indigenization if you have vision and ambition.
Well, lets hope project Azm to be really turn into true joint product, not off the shelf bought J31 ot TFX.

 

[KaiserX]

Hi,

You want to squeeze juice out of a lemon that has been squeezed a long time ago---. You are looking for shame in people who are shameless---all they can say is a lack of funds---.

They have no strategy---no game plan---no tactics finding funds from somewhere---.

They are so stupid that they think that they should develop their economy and then they will have funds for all these weapons---and by saying so---they are suggesting that the world is stupid and will let them stabilize and get better off to buy weapons to start a war---.

This is the brilliant pakistan---and this is what brilliant Think Tank members suggest here---and everybody's Abbaji and Nana Ji and dada Ji and Chacha ji including Chacha Dhakkan and Mama Makhan suggest as well---.

Why is the JF17 delayed---because there was no engine---and there was no EW package as well----.

Funny thing is had we given half the effort we gave to our nuclear program to the jf-17 we would have had a fighter jet more advance than the rafale with our own home grown engine... how many nukes do we really need to cover india? 50 max. at that point its an over kill and our "funds" and resources should be used on fighters!

Grumman left after sanctions. The project took off after 1995 when Mikhoyan and CAC joined.
Some of your concerns are right. As the initial order of JF17 was 250 which was reduced to 188. Blk 3 faced delays and many here said some of the features were compromised for blk 3 due to financial restrictions.....etc.
Good thing about joint venture is its always followed by indigenization if you have vision and ambition.
Well, lets hope project Azm to be really turn into true joint product, not off the shelf bought J31 ot TFX.

Nope super 7 was a venture between US-Pakistan which china also later joined... US left but pakistan still had enough technical knowledge via its use of the f-16 to go ahead with it, but it fumbled another decade afterwards on mirage 2000 (bhutto) and f-16s (sharif). Program didnt get much attention until musharaf said enough is enough.

What id really like to see along side project azm is a side project with a possible twin engine jf-17... shouldnt cost much just redesign and testing, but can give the PAF amazing capabilities esp with a bigger aesa radar (similar to the one on the j-16 with 300km range) now imagine that with the pl-12 and thats innovation that im talking about... but to made our generals are thinking about their next plots in defence society..

 

[python-000]

Funny thing is had we given half the effort we gave to our nuclear program to the jf-17 we would have had a fighter jet more advance than the rafale with our own home grown engine... how many nukes do we really need to cover india? 50 max. at that point its an over kill and our "funds" and resources should be used on fighters!



Nope super 7 was a venture between US-Pakistan which china also later joined... US left but pakistan still had enough technical knowledge via its use of the f-16 to go ahead with it, but it fumbled another decade afterwards on mirage 2000 (bhutto) and f-16s (sharif). Program didnt get much attention until musharaf said enough is enough.

What id really like to see along side project azm is a side project with a possible twin engine jf-17... shouldnt cost much just redesign and testing, but can give the PAF amazing capabilities esp with a bigger aesa radar (similar to the one on the j-16 with 300km range) now imagine that with the pl-12 and thats innovation that im talking about... but to made our generals are thinking about their next plots in defence society..

China & Pakistan Friendship Forever...

 

[KaiserX]

I believe some higher power is deliberately sabotaging any progress of our fire power lest it crosses a certain thresh hold. And the juniors are being pushed hard to come up with out of the box kinda solutions for those obsolete platforms to save SOMETHING . However there accomplishments are incredibly terrific, now imagine if they are allowed to deliver the same input on advanced fighters that too in numbers - - - - - - -.


Pakistan witnessed atleast Three stand offs with multiple enemy incursions in the last two decades and here we could only reach the mark of just 110? Whatever happened to the 26 aircraft/year? I am not buying this lack of funds bs in case of our own indeginous thunder.

Exactly what im saying. Lets follow the Israelis, they let innovation thrive not take it as some sort of blasphemy. We are in a similar situation as them but instead of taking a bottom up approach we have taken a top down approach with a lack of focus on innovation.

We have experts who have constantly been rolling out military procurement strategies for pakistan which have literally been going nowhere in the last few decades. Lets focus on home grown solutions with JVs with china.

We made a perfect single engine 4th generation design with the jf-17 that can easily be expanded upon... if range/payload is issue redesign with another rd-93, if stealth is an issue hey remember we captured that stealth heli during the osama raid a decade ago

Forget nukes we will never use, at this point

 

[Beast]

Funny thing is had we given half the effort we gave to our nuclear program to the jf-17 we would have had a fighter jet more advance than the rafale with our own home grown engine... how many nukes do we really need to cover india? 50 max. at that point its an over kill and our "funds" and resources should be used on fighters!



Nope super 7 was a venture between US-Pakistan which china also later joined... US left but pakistan still had enough technical knowledge via its use of the f-16 to go ahead with it, but it fumbled another decade afterwards on mirage 2000 (bhutto) and f-16s (sharif). Program didnt get much attention until musharaf said enough is enough.

What id really like to see along side project azm is a side project with a possible twin engine jf-17... shouldnt cost much just redesign and testing, but can give the PAF amazing capabilities esp with a bigger aesa radar (similar to the one on the j-16 with 300km range) now imagine that with the pl-12 and thats innovation that im talking about... but to made our generals are thinking about their next plots in defence society..

Wow, you talk as if design an advance modern fighter jets is so easy. Do u know China spend how much to create an aviation industries capable of building modern 5th gen fighter jets? USD40billion and not including other areas like metallurgy, semi-conductor , education and research. Where do u think u can find the money, resources for such big projects.

Just with determination alone is not enough, you need long years of planning , huge financial resources plus a very strong industries to support. It's not as easy as you think and that is why PAF leader at top has the vision to tag along with China giant to fast track their ambition of building a semi-autonomous project of JF-17 mainly for PAF use.

 

[The Eagle]

Forget nukes we will never use, at this point

Who said anything for the use of N at this point? Let's get back to the topic and remember that N is our deterrent. Stop preaching the wrong idea with a rotten seed.

For the quality & interest, thread bans are enforced.

Regards,

 

[Mentee]

Exactly what im saying. Lets follow the Israelis, they let innovation thrive not take it as some sort of blasphemy. We are in a similar situation as them but instead of taking a bottom up approach we have taken a top down approach with a lack of focus on innovation.

We have experts who have constantly been rolling out military procurement strategies for pakistan which have literally been going nowhere in the last few decades. Lets focus on home grown solutions with JVs with china.

We made a perfect single engine 4th generation design with the jf-17 that can easily be expanded upon... if range/payload is issue redesign with another rd-93, if stealth is an issue hey remember we captured that stealth heli during the osama raid a decade ago

Forget nukes we will never use, at this point

There's a cat and mouse game being played in this country. If some how patriots manage to deliver a power punch kinda technique then a group comes into action to atleast delay the reaping of the fruits for a prolonged time. Imagine musharaf not using common sense and taking the bait by only going the Saab way, we'd have been screwed royally by now. Then there's a 36 j 10 b saga - - - - - - - -

Who said anything for the use of N at this point? Let's get back to the topic and remember that N is our deterrent. Stop preaching the wrong idea with a rotten seed.

For the quality & interest, thread bans are enforced.

Regards,

Sir g India sir p khara Hai block b is our own creation but we don't seem to be worried about nothing. Why we are still stuck at the number 110? Whatever happened to the 26/year?

 

[Amaa'n]

Who said anything for the use of N at this point? Let's get back to the topic and remember that N is our deterrent. Stop preaching the wrong idea with a rotten seed.

For the quality & interest, thread bans are enforced.

Regards,

i like the discussion b/w @MastanKhan and @KaiserX , both are spot on.....paf leadership needs to be taken to task over their failures

 

[The Eagle]

Sir g India sir p khara Hai block b is our own creation but we don't seem to be worried about nothing. Why we are still stuck at the number 110? Whatever happened to the 26/year?

Bhai... who said anything about no preparation at all... or do we really need to beat the drum and say everything or even hype it like the rivals.... There is a worry but that doesn't meant to be feared.. worry is paying for preparation. I see people's desperation most often due to the lack of information and knowledge about such preparations but that doesn't validate the point that Force is asleep. Lest not fall for personal diarrhea of someone. What we mostly talk about is not even the part of Block-III.

i like the discussion b/w @MastanKhan and @KaiserX , both are spot on.....paf leadership needs to be taken to task over their failures

I have no issue in regard to discussing the failures and rectifying issues, unless there is something as such instead of the work of our own minds & low information. I mean, how much do we consider the fact of constraints that we faced viz a viz calling them failures. There is a mix of both at a time but to say that they were traitors; is even more worst to demoralize the people. What you say?

There's a cat and mouse game being played in this country. If some how patriots manage to deliver a power punch kinda technique then a group comes into action to atleast delay the reaping of the fruits for a prolonged time. Imagine musharaf not using common sense and taking the bait by only going the Saab way, we'd have been screwed royally by now. Then there's a 36 j 10 b saga - - - - - - - -

The number of those babus, reducing. Don't we remember why PAF submitted a Bill to be passed by Senate in regard to scrutiny within the Force without any legal stoppage or interference.... that bill even includes the questioning for ex Officers no matter where they are... So, we are doing what needed and are blocking every door to such mentality to never rise again.

Wow, you talk as if design an advance modern fighter jets is so easy. Do u know China spend how much to create an aviation industries capable of building modern 5th gen fighter jets? USD40billion and not including other areas like metallurgy, semi-conductor , education and research. Where do u think u can find the money, resources for such big projects.

Just with determination alone is not enough, you need long years of planning , huge financial resources plus a very strong industries to support. It's not as easy as you think and that is why PAF leader at top has the vision to tag along with China giant to fast track their ambition of building a semi-autonomous project of JF-17 mainly for PAF use.

Nobody is undermining China's progress and hard work at all. In-fact it takes two to tango..... and parties involved in certain projects do have fair share of credibility. Lest not get into mine is bigger than yours fight here. PAF has its own limitations and beside that, we do have the most threat of sabotage by enemies that never misses a chance to harm us. We shouldn't forget that why US has to take a jibe at CPEC project and progress therein including the Economic Details.... that at one point, ex CIA Lady has to say that actually those finances are invested into Military buildup etc.... In reality, no one will say a single word openly and will never let others know about the progress in national interest. PAF is almost out of turbulent tide and is on track towards more self reliance. . . . Of-course, we don't forget our friends in need that are friends in deed.

 

[araz]

Funny thing is had we given half the effort we gave to our nuclear program to the jf-17 we would have had a fighter jet more advance than the rafale with our own home grown engine... how many nukes do we really need to cover india? 50 max. at that point its an over kill and our "funds" and resources should be used on fighters!



Nope super 7 was a venture between US-Pakistan which china also later joined... US left but pakistan still had enough technical knowledge via its use of the f-16 to go ahead with it, but it fumbled another decade afterwards on mirage 2000 (bhutto) and f-16s (sharif). Program didnt get much attention until musharaf said enough is enough.

What id really like to see along side project azm is a side project with a possible twin engine jf-17... shouldnt cost much just redesign and testing, but can give the PAF amazing capabilities esp with a bigger aesa radar (similar to the one on the j-16 with 300km range) now imagine that with the pl-12 and thats innovation that im talking about... but to made our generals are thinking about their next plots in defence society..

I will not answer your whole post. However this is not just a problem with not paying enough attention or making effort. Turn key industrial setup takes time effort and money. If you think we could have setup a whole industry producing everything in the twenty/thirty years we have been producing Thunders then I would respectfully disagree. You seem unaware of the baseline from where this whole setup started. Believe me it is nothing short of a miracle we have gotten as far as we have as quickly as we have. I dont think we could have gotten here any quicker and our neighbours are a testament to the problems of taking on too big a project on their own.
You are entitled to your opinion but without cold hard facts it would be difficult to enter into a concrete debate. For instance during the 2010 to14 period production reemained low as most of the basic funds needed were not released.
A

 

[Amaa'n]

I have no issue in regard to discussing the failures and rectifying issues, unless there is something as such instead of the work of our own minds & low information. I mean, how much do we consider the fact of constraints that we faced viz a viz calling them failures. There is a mix of both at a time but to say that they were traitors; is even more worst to demoralize the people. What you say?



The number of those babus, reducing. Don't we remember why PAF submitted a Bill to be passed by Senate in regard to scrutiny within the Force without any legal stoppage or interference.... that bill even includes the questioning for ex Officers no matter where they are... So, we are doing what needed and are blocking every door to such mentality to never rise again.

I think it will derail the thread, but we should allow the positive criticism with obvious focus on quality of the posts. So far we have yet to witness any post which is really subpar and calls for a thread ban. Now obviously, am not in position to make that call, but I would humbly suggest that allow them space to be critique of military officials within the domain of constructive criticism.

 

[The Eagle]

I think it will derail the thread, but we should allow the positive criticism with obvious focus on quality of the posts. So far we have yet to witness any post which is really subpar and calls for a thread ban. Now obviously, am not in position to make that call, but I would humbly suggest that allow them space to be critique of military officials within the domain of constructive criticism.

Actually, criticism is not denied but thread bans are issued after several reminders. Just browse back few pages and you will see that its been violated continuously on one or another context. The general discussion of any conduct as such has been discussed not just one or two but I think 100 times and now it seems more of a rant instead of positive at all. As no one has anything knowledgeable or any input in regard to topic in hand, like we have JF-17 Block-III updates, news & discussion; there comes the same thing of past again & again & again.

These posts started to appear when an analyst is unable to share anything in regard to Thunder Block-III, be it what it has or it can or it may have and how can we do it. It always ends with nothing but General was a traitor, hang that ACM, cut slit throat of Admiral; lets burn the higher ups, Oh yeah these evil seniors and what not... I mean, it is really tiring to concentrate on the topic instead, we do have lot of energy to discuss what been discussed again & again. What's Nuclear Power has to do with this JF-17 Thunder and then we have a suggestion that "Pakistan should forget it"... really? how come someone share such a comment without any due consideration of every or almost any aspect at all. just look at where this discussion is leading. Just wanted the discussion to remain intact and on point hence, such a post of thread ban issuance. Well, no one is banned as of today from thread. But, just imagine the comparison of JF-17 Thunder to N program and then there is no consideration of our own economical constraints, enemies, sabotages and all. . . . We have started and we are progressing. Positive & productive criticism is welcome Sir unless, that becomes boring and reaches the point that no one is taking interest at all. . . so, just for the sake of discussion be remain on topic, had to issue an open warning.

 

[Invictus.inc]

Sometimes I feel like People on this forum make more sense & have more knowledge than those making these million dollar procurements
From Buying Tin Can Toyota's with no Gun mount/Roll over cages/Comm Equip(Except for the Military Green Color) to Bullet Proof Jackets that could hardly making aiming a rifle possible (Having Personally Used One) with an absolute lack of Mag Pouches to delaying the block 3 to the point where the world has moved on to stealth technology while we still discuss if block 3 should have an IRST or not without a single operational example flying to this very day

 

[Dazzler]

Sometimes I feel like People on this forum make more sense & have more knowledge than those making these million dollar procurements
From Buying Tin Can Toyota's with no Gun mount/Roll over cages/Comm Equip(Except for the Military Green Color) to Bullet Proof Jackets that could hardly making aiming a rifle possible (Having Personally Used One) with an absolute lack of Mag Pouches to delaying the block 3 to the point where the world has moved on to stealth technology while we still discuss if block 3 should have an IRST or not without a single operational example flying to this very day

True that, you will find all aviation aristotles and platos, airmchair generals here.