Jawaharlal Nehru 'pleaded' for US help against China in 1962

[paritosh]

Well given the fact that China and India are the two fastest growing economies in the world...

I would say that we BOTH did very well, in developing systems that are unique to our own countries.

I have been a great admirer of the Chinese model.
go back 60 years...China and India were the most populated and poor states in the world...plundered by western imperialists...and by their own internal mess...
there was one big difference...we were occupied and you were influenced...the socialist model implemented with fierce adherence to it's basal principles would have been the ONLY workable model for such countries...where resource utilization was of utmost importance...
now China under the PLA and Mao tse-tung got the socialist machinery working and began it's slow process of reforms...
we were granted independence...the British would have not granted power to socialists...the parties of independent India had British wiling/unwilling mentors...socialism was seen as unnecessary...and the feudal and rustic bureaucratic system continued writing on the same dusty files that the British left to us...
We have progressed as we were bound to progress...we represent the world's fastest growing middle class...
it's like being a fast sprinter tangled in one of the obstacle bars but still managing to be fast...
China has arrived...and we would....

 

[LaBong]

Take it from a guy who lived all his life in communist rule. China didn't progress because they followed socialism, they progressed because they at a point, stopped judging the cat by her colour but by her skill to kill the mouse.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

I already made a post on this.

Chinese withdraw because they had no logistics and supply line intact and new divisions of IA about to get deployed to NE. It'd have been suicidal for them to defend the undefendable.

On this forum , you need to make posts like those in BOLD.

 

[paritosh]

Take it from a guy who lived all his life in communist rule. China didn't progress because they followed socialism, they progressed because they at a point, stopped judging the cat by her colour but by her skill to kill the mouse.

ok that is too deep for me...but removing caste and anyother inequalities from your country and society helps a lot for a feudal/agrarian third world country...
giving the power to the people is democracy...giving the power to the working people is socialist...the latter's significance grows with the pressure on a country's resources.

 

[S3xy B0y]

i f u king hate Nehru.
This idiot smurf had zero sized mind.
idk,why he is recognized as a national icon and the effing Cong. Party potrays him as a great leader,in his time.

 

[Indiarox]

i f u king hate Nehru.
This idiot smurf had zero sized mind.
idk,why he is recognized as a national icon and the effing Cong. Party potrays him as a great leader,in his time.

What a waste of a post

 

[LaBong]

ok that is too deep for me...but removing caste and anyother inequalities from your country and society helps a lot for a feudal/agrarian third world country...
giving the power to the people is democracy...giving the power to the working people is socialist...the latter's significance grows with the pressure on a country's resources.

That was a quote by Den Xiaoping.

It doesn't matter if a cat is black or white, so long as it catches mice.

China follows a capitalist economy, not a socialist one.

 

[Brotherhood]

That was a quote by Den Xiaoping.



China follows a capitalist economy, not a socialist one.

Actually its Socialism with Chinese characteristic

DENG XIAOPING'S ECONOMIC REFORMS

In 1978, Deng Xiaoping launched what he called a "second revolution" that involved reforming China's moribund economic system and "opening up to outside world." The market-oriented economic reforms launched by Deng were described as "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics." Deng insisted the reforms were not capitalistic: "I have expressed time and again that our modernization is a socialist one," he said. DENG XIAOPING'S ECONOMIC REFORMS - China | Facts and Details

 

[CardSharp]

Take it from a guy who lived all his life in communist rule. China didn't progress because they followed socialism, they progressed because they at a point, stopped judging the cat by her colour but by her skill to kill the mouse.

A socialist state is still more modern than an imperial kingdom. Mao pulled China kicking and screaming into the modern world. Most people think that Deng was responsible for all of China's progress but Mao was there for 70% of it.

Don't think so.

You can abolish a believe which has been ingrained in society for millennia using iron hand. The change has to be inclusive. India gave birth to many great men who tried to get rid off this evil practice, today we are bearing the fruits of their good deeds.

Also I still think you under-estimate the Communists popularity and ability to unite people in those early years. If those great Indians you mentioned failed to abolish castism and the traditional role of women, it is their fault for not being effective as Mao, because the place of women as subservient was arguably more deeper ingrained and stretches back much further.

 

[CardSharp]

Another question i wanted to ask is , did the Chinese withdraw only because US intervened because from many neutral sources i have even heard that the chinese had logistical problems in the eastern sector i.e arunachal pradesh and could not have held on to that territory much longer and had to withdraw .

Kindly put some light on this

I already made a post on this.

Chinese withdraw because they had no logistics and supply line intact and new divisions of IA about to get deployed to NE. It'd have been suicidal for them to defend the undefendable.

This is bad logic. The PLA withdrew because it reached the end of the it MSR, ergo it must be because it ran out of supplies that it withdrew. China never planned for a major offensive into India. It saw the issue as the Indian Army on the border.

Also during my reading I've never heard mention of any attempts to reinforce the collapsed eastern sector. As far I know, all Indian military resistance ceased when the PLA declared the unilateral withdraw.


This was not a case of the Chinese having intent to invade further.

 

[LaBong]

A socialist state is still more modern than an imperial kingdom. Mao pulled China kicking and screaming into the modern world. Most people think that Deng was responsible for all of China's progress but Mao was there for 70% of it.

What worked for China may not work for rest of the World. Actually it never worked anywhere but China. There's some inherent characteristics of communism that I despise(despite being born in a communist family).

The place I was born was most developed in both economically and socially in India before communists took over 30 years ago and now it has became, ah, forget it ..

Also I still think you under-estimate the Communists popularity and ability to unite people in those early years. If those great Indians you mentioned failed to abolish castism and the traditional role of women, it is their fault for not being effective as Mao, because the place of women as subservient was arguably more deeper ingrained and stretches back much further.

I for one would never under-estimate communists, I know how well-organized they can be from top to bottom. It works like a well-oiled machine, and in most cases the machine ended up in self-destructive path.

You have to consider the religious angle of caste system. People do crazy things for religion. It's next to impossible to bring such a revolutionary change in it if not the religion itself mends it's way.

State can at best make any bias on caste system illegal and see all her citizen as same regardless of their caste(both of which has been done in modern India), but it can no way stop people from different caste hating each other. Even a Mao can't change human nature and heart.

Also would be more specific on how woman are treated in modern India vis-a-vis modern China? If you talking about woman healthcare, child and maternal mortality rates, yeah China did far better than India(even other South Asian nations did better), but women noway are treated as inferior in modern India. It's more like women don't let themselves to be treated as inferior in modern India. Yeah there some bias exists which is true for all society, all over the world.

Gosh if I make any hint of she being inferior than me to my girl, she will probably dump me at that very instance!

 

[CardSharp]

What worked for China may not work for rest of the World. Actually it never worked anywhere but China. There's some inherent characteristics of communism that I despise(despite being born in a communist family).

The place I was born was most developed in both economically and socially in India before communists took over 30 years ago and now it has became, ah, forget it ..



I for one would never under-estimate communists, I know how well-organized they can be from top to bottom. It works like a well-oiled machine, and in most cases the machine ended up in self-destructive path.

You have to consider the religious angle of caste system. People do crazy things for religion. It's next to impossible to bring such a revolutionary change in it if not the religion itself mends it's way.

State can at best make any bias on caste system illegal and see all her citizen as same regardless of their caste(both of which has been done in modern India), but it can no way stop people from different caste hating each other. Even a Mao can't change human nature and heart.

Ahh again that is where I think the GoI falls down, it may make these biases illegal but that is a far cry from changing people's minds about the subject. What communism does is combine for better or worse politics with a strong ideology

Also would be more specific on how woman are treated in modern India vis-a-vis modern China? If you talking about woman healthcare, child and maternal mortality rates, yeah China did far better than India(even other South Asian nations did better), but women noway are treated as inferior in modern India. It's more like women don't let them to be treated as inferior in modern India. Yeah there some bias exists which is true for all society, all over the world.

Gosh if I make any hint of she being inferior than me to my girl, she will probably dump me at that very instance!

That's because you're an educated person and probably a nice guy.

But things like mortality, and healthcare is not what I am talking about. It's about the place of women in the social structure. For example, a girl back in Imperial China with bound feet who hardly leaves home is still expected to live longer and be as healthy as men in a rich family but if you knocked on the door, when no one else is home, and ask "is anyone home?", she would have answered "no, no one is home" ....

She wouldn't even think of herself as a person.

But compare this with China today. Families who had a daughter under the one child policy put in the same amount of high level of attention and money in raising their daughter as they would their son. They are afforded every chance in life that a boy would be.

(I'll also mention that though sons are preferred over daughters, this is not a reflections of sexism but rather of a wish for family continuity and the passing on of the family line, which always follows the male offspring)

 

[LaBong]

Ahh again that is where I think the GoI falls down, it may make these biases illegal but that is a far cry from changing people's minds about the subject. What communism does is combine for better or worse politics with a strong ideology

Yes but that depends on how many person actually knows communism or believes in it's ideology. The ruling class being communist is different than the mass who in general blindly follows national mood or mind their own business. I'd not mind though Indian being less religious, will abstain us of a hell lotta problem!

That's because you're an educated person and probably a nice guy.

Thank you!

I also have mostly nice guys around me.

But things like mortality, and healthcare is not what I am talking about. It's about the place of women in the social structure. For example, a girl back in Imperial China with bound feet who hardly leaves home is still expected to live longer and be as healthy as men in a rich family but if you knocked on the door, when no one else is home, and ask "is anyone home?", she would have answered "no, no one is home" ....

She wouldn't even think of herself as a person.

But compare this with China today. Families who had a daughter under the one child policy put in the same amount of high level of attention and money in raising their daughter as they would their son. They are afforded every chance in life that a boy would be.

(I'll also mention that though sons are preferred over daughters, this is not a reflections of sexism but rather of a wish for family continuity and the passing on of the family line, which always follows the male offspring)

Urban India isn't any different from urban China in this aspect. I think it more depends on education, China being far more literate than India doing far better in uplifting woman's status in rural part.

The screwed sex-ratio of India is really a thing to be worried.

If literature gives an insight of a society then women took part in education, politics and all other social aspects in a same ways as men did in ancient India. It wasn't a prudent society as well as can be witnessed in Khajurao or other art works. We will get there once again, hopefully ..

 

[indushek]

Whatever the paths followed by both countries today both are progressing. That is a fact. Regarding women and their status India is on path of transformation. The change here has been late, only when India implemented the reforms is that India really started to change.

Raising income levels bring changes in societal conditions and it is showing in current situations. Ten years back marrying off a girl in India was looked up on as a burden because of dowry and other expenses due to which birth of a girl was not favoured. However today parents are respecting the decisions of their girls and are going along. Ask any groom to be how hard it is now compared to just five years back or three years back. It is just not easy to match the expectations of girls now a days.

While this holds good for educated middle class and rich families the situations in poorer families is also changing. People on keyboards thousands of miles away will not know these subtle changes as they always look at reports and woman empowerment indexes which will be true to some extent but not in any way the ultimate situations on ground. There is no need for us to prove to every body how developed how broad minded and how interested in so and so concepts until we work on it.

 

[Bangalorean]

Cardsharp:

Discrimination against women reduces as a result of urbanization, increased economic power and of course education. In urban India, due to the above factors, there really isn't any discrimination, and as more of the country becomes urbanized and the overall wealth increases, the remnants of discrimination in the semi-urban/rural areas will also go away. And the same holds for the caste system.

It has nothing to do with the excellence of communism.