‘J-K integral part of India, Pak must vacate illegally occupied areas’ UK MP

[ito]

Oh my...you seriously cannot be this ignorant. Just...hush...up, you have ZERO idea what you're talking about. Nothing you've said is true, and your entire logic base is completely and utterly flawed.

Pakistan started military operations WAY before APS, or did you forget the operations S-WA, SWAT, Karachi, FATA, or the numerous military operations that were started soon after Pakistan joined the US efforts? I guess you forgot.

No, the US does NOT pay for the majority of the military budget.

Okay, let's do some math and some LOGIC, because I'm completely confident you have no idea where that 25% number comes from. First, keep in mind, war time usually means that the military budgets are larger than their official numbers, because war dynamics force nations to adjust military expenditures, depending on the situation. As such, Pakistan's current expenditure is actually TEMPORARY, and likely to decrease back to normal size, once most major military operations are complete, and the insurgency becomes a low level one.

Second, I'd like to point out that the military is the largest employer in Pakistan, and uses a good chunk of it's budget to help develop the tribal areas that were destroyed during PA operations. So, it's not like Pakistan is simply paying it's army to sit around and do nothing, as such, every single penny can be rightly justified. From building roads, schools and hospitals, the PA budget is not just paying soldiers, and fighting wars, it's also to pay for the aftermath; therapy of soldiers that were either wounded, or suffer from psychological trauma, and paying for reconstruction efforts.

Pakistan's budget for 2015-2016 is Rs4.451 trillion which is USD$42,509,898,640.00 ,Pakistan's official military budget is USD$7,449,499,200.00, that's only 17.52% of the total national budget: less than the 2014-15 budget, which was 18-19%.

Budget 2015-16: Finance Minister Ishaq Dar unveils Rs4.451 tr budget - The Express Tribune

Now if you include vital issues, such as protecting foreign workers, mainly Chinese working on Gwadar port, and the on going operations in N-WA, Karachi, and the soon to be announced Punjab operation, that budget is closer to $11 billion.

Adding in Pakistan's current budget that the military has requested in order to continue to conduct military operations (plus reconstruction, rehabilitation, and peacekeeping efforts), the actual budget is closer to $11 billion. AGAIN, THIS IS TEMPORARY, DUE TO WAR TIME EFFORTS, as such, the actual budget is 25.87%, which is LESS than the previous year of 26-27%.

This is more to show others what the budget actually is, rather than just to explaining it to you. Although, I'm SURE you're going to ignore most of what I wrote, and concentrate on specific words, which you will fail to contextualize.

@waz @Horus @WebMaster @Zarvan @jaibi @MaarKhoor @Areesh @Oscar @notorious_eagle

You are good and wants to believe in goodness of others that I can see from the posts. But I have to say you missed your point by a mile. What you posted is not the narrative that international community believe. I can post lots and lots of evidence on what international community thinks of Pakistan's role in whole WoT.

 

[Dr Gupta]

A nice detailed mouth shut reply but we can't do much when hatred and obsession blind our neighbor a national phenomena...Pakistan always maintain and have peace loving agenda and always first to offer peace like we did in Siachen but hate and war monger neighbor despite losing number of his own soldiers never showed any interest...Pakistan started the operation long before our neighbor think like swat valley and on other areas but after APS its just come to lime light and in media....

Yes as we don't trust you. actions like 26/11, Kargil shows that NS has little control over the Punjabi militant nexus.

 

[That Guy]

You are good and wants to believe in goodness of others that I can see from the posts. But I have to say you missed your point by a mile. What you posted is not the narrative that international community believe. I can post lots and lots of evidence on what international community thinks of Pakistan's role in whole WoT.

Facts and perceptions are two different things. A long time ago, a majority believed the earth was flat, that was the perception, but it is not fact.

Perception is not evidence, it is opinion.

My point is clear.

 

[Dr Gupta]

Oh my...you seriously cannot be this ignorant. Just...hush...up, you have ZERO idea what you're talking about. Nothing you've said is true, and your entire logic base is completely and utterly flawed.

Pakistan started military operations WAY before APS, or did you forget the operations S-WA, SWAT, Karachi, FATA, or the numerous military operations that were started soon after Pakistan joined the US efforts? I guess you forgot.

No, the US does NOT pay for the majority of the military budget.

Okay, let's do some math and some LOGIC, because I'm completely confident you have no idea where that 25% number comes from. First, keep in mind, war time usually means that the military budgets are larger than their official numbers, because war dynamics force nations to adjust military expenditures, depending on the situation. As such, Pakistan's current expenditure is actually TEMPORARY, and likely to decrease back to normal size, once most major military operations are complete, and the insurgency becomes a low level one.

Second, I'd like to point out that the military is the largest employer in Pakistan, and uses a good chunk of it's budget to help develop the tribal areas that were destroyed during PA operations. So, it's not like Pakistan is simply paying it's army to sit around and do nothing, as such, every single penny can be rightly justified. From building roads, schools and hospitals, the PA budget is not just paying soldiers, and fighting wars, it's also to pay for the aftermath; therapy of soldiers that were either wounded, or suffer from psychological trauma, and paying for reconstruction efforts.

Pakistan's budget for 2015-2016 is Rs4.451 trillion which is USD$42,509,898,640.00 ,Pakistan's official military budget is USD$7,449,499,200.00, that's only 17.52% of the total national budget: less than the 2014-15 budget, which was 18-19%.

Budget 2015-16: Finance Minister Ishaq Dar unveils Rs4.451 tr budget - The Express Tribune

Now if you include vital issues, such as protecting foreign workers, mainly Chinese working on Gwadar port, and the on going operations in N-WA, Karachi, and the soon to be announced Punjab operation, that budget is closer to $11 billion.

Adding in Pakistan's current budget that the military has requested in order to continue to conduct military operations (plus reconstruction, rehabilitation, and peacekeeping efforts), the actual budget is closer to $11 billion. AGAIN, THIS IS TEMPORARY, DUE TO WAR TIME EFFORTS, as such, the actual budget is 25.87%, which is LESS than the previous year of 26-27%.

This is more to show others what the budget actually is, rather than just to explaining it to you. Although, I'm SURE you're going to ignore most of what I wrote, and concentrate on specific words, which you will fail to contextualize.

@waz @Horus @WebMaster @Zarvan @jaibi @MaarKhoor @Areesh @Oscar @notorious_eagle

Nobody knows the actual number, anyone who claims they do are lying or in denial as any senior person will tell you that there is many in the Pakistan army who have extended business interests from real estate to narcotics.

 

[That Guy]

Nobody knows the actual number, anyone who claims they do are lying or in denial as any senior person will tell you that there is many in the Pakistan army who have extended business interests from real estate to narcotics.

There ARE estimates out there, as well as official numbers, the truth is somewhere in the middle. I'm confident in the numbers I've given, as they're based upon talking to fellow TTs, mods and professionals, as well as numerous articles.

 

[ito]

Facts and perceptions are two different things. A long time ago, a majority believed the earth was flat, that was the perception, but it is not fact.

Perception is not evidence, it is opinion.

My point is clear.

What makes you think that what you believe are facts, and what international community thinks are perceptions?

 

[Dr Gupta]

There ARE estimates out there, as well as official numbers, the truth is somewhere in the middle. I'm confident in the numbers I've given, as they're based upon talking to fellow TTs, mods and professionals, as well as numerous articles.

Even India's 'official' defence budget is not the true reflection.. some things are classed as anonymous plus we all know that corruption is a big issue with South Asians. Kickbacks & bribes are a part and parcel of defence.

 

[That Guy]

What makes you think that what you believe are facts, and what international community thinks are perceptions?

Historical data and raw numbers, because in the end, that's all what it comes down to.

Even India's 'official' defence budget is not the true reflection.. some things are classed as anonymous plus we all know that corruption is a big issue with South Asians. Kickbacks & bribes are a part and parcel of defence.

I actually addressed this today, in another thread precisely about international budgets. Damned if I can find the thread, though.

 

[Dr Gupta]

Historical data and raw numbers, because in the end, that's all what it comes down to.


I actually addressed this today, in another thread precisely about international budgets. Damned if I can find the thread, though.

There is a hidden black budget in every major country including the UK.

Snowden said the US has one which is $52 bn but who really knows?

 

[Apprentice]

With the greatest of respect you don't speak for all the ethnic groups who make up Pakistan. All the Pashtuns/Pathans that I know have a very strong sense of ethnic identity. The only one's that do not are the Salafis, and nobody cares what they think.

Religious identity supersedes ethnic identity. In the next life its religion, not ethnicity, that counts. For example I am ethnically Kashmiri, and I am a descendant of Pandits. I have a strong sense of Kashmiri identity, but I don't let it supersede my religious identity. To allow my religious identity to supersede my ethnic one would be transgressing the bounds of Islam. And this is something all Muslims agree on, whether they are Deobandi, Barelvi, Ahl e Hadith etc

No, the failure in Bangladesh was because Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto wouldn't accept that he'd lost an election, and certain ethnic groups in Pakistan had no intention of allowing an East Pakistani to be leader.

Thats utter garbage. During 1971 war and after the war, our Prime Minister, Nurul Amin, was a Bengali.

Bhutto and Yahya Qizilbashi in a fit of madness and against all military sense decided that they could impose their will upon a part of the country hundreds of miles away, and on the other side of a mortal enemy. In the beginning there was lots of cheering from the usual gang who think that killing thousands of members of an ethnic group represents a great victory....all it does is ensure they will never forgive you. And in the end, despite all the media 'all good news', the truth eventually emerged.

The military didn't go there to impose Bhutto and Yahya's will, they went to East Pakistan to crush an Indian-backed terrorist insurgency which was killing Biharis and pro-Pakistan Bengalis. Even before Operation Searchlight which only started on the 25th of March.

Pakistan still hasn't managed to absorb the descendants of the migrants who arrived 70 years ago, and the obvious reason is that the culture of those migrants is far removed from the Indus valley cultures of the ethnic groups of Pakistan. The nature of the people of the western-most portion of the subcontinent is very different from the culture of the Gangetic Plains. What I'm saying isn't new. Ahmad Shah Abdali recognized this and chose not to rule Hind.

The Muhajirs who migrated to rural areas of Sindh are well integrated. As well as the Muhajirs from UP and Delhi who landed in Punjab. Because migrants there adapted the local culture and assimilated.

The only place assimilation did not occur was urban Sindh because the Indian Muslim migrants dominated the bureaucracy of the country and their language was the official language and they felt no need to assimilate with local Sindhi culture.

So please, let the Indian Muslims either resolve their problems within the borders of the Indian state, or let them break away into their own regions. Whatever they do, most Pashtuns do not want any sort of union with them. 'Altaf Bhai' and the MQM have been lesson enough for Pashtuns, on the very real differences between us as ethnic groups.

I don't think you would have supported the creation of Pakistan in 1947. You sound like an ethnic nationalist. Remember, this country was created on religious basis. Not on the basis of some Indus Valley civilization. The movement for creation of Pakistan originated and enjoyed the most support from the Muslims of UP and the Gangetic plains. Not from the Muslims of this so-called 'Indus Valley' civilisation.

There is no room for ethnic nationalism in Pakistan. Ethnic nationalism is one of the worst enemies of Pakistan.

What a dumb retard you are

Do you want me to quote to you an Indian forum member here called SarthakGanguly who says Indian Muslims are generally not loyal to India?

And let me tell you until the point you make Kashmir a religious issue, you are actually harming your so called Kashmir cause.

Kashmir has always been a religious issue.

Lets recall the 1987 elections of Kashmir. Who was the most popular Kashmiri party in 1987? Oh right, it was the Muslim United Front which was calling for a plebiscite and Nizam e Mustafa (Islamic system).

When India rigged the elections the Kashmiri Muslims revolted.

And only the Muslims.

The Hindus of Kashmir stayed loyal to India.

Clearly it is a religious issue.

Hindus loyal to India and most Muslims (except for secularists) not loyal to India.

And its being a religious issue does not harm the Kashmiri cause at all.

Remember the Pakistan Movement was a religious cause too. It was a Muslim cause and it succeeded in tearing your country apart. The religion factor caused no harm to Pakistan Movement at all and insha allah will prove successful in Kashmir too.

 

[Maarkhoor]

Yes as we don't trust you. actions like 26/11, Kargil shows that NS has little control over the Punjabi militant nexus.

Don't go to past otherwise we have 1971 memory...where your brave army used mukti bahini and terrorism to attack us. Forget past lets talk otherwise live in poverty and keep building worlds largest poor population.

 

[Tshering22]

J-K integral part of India, Pak must vacate illegally occupied areas’ UK MP

I thought elections were over long back.

What's with the overture?

 

[libertycall]

Religious identity supersedes ethnic identity. In the next life its religion, not ethnicity, that counts. For example I am ethnically Kashmiri, and I am a descendant of Pandits. I have a strong sense of Kashmiri identity, but I don't let it supersede my religious identity. To allow my religious identity to supersede my ethnic one would be transgressing the bounds of Islam. And this is something all Muslims agree on, whether they are Deobandi, Barelvi, Ahl e Hadith etc

Thats utter garbage. During 1971 war and after the war, our Prime Minister, Nurul Amin, was a Bengali.

The military didn't go there to impose Bhutto and Yahya's will, they went to East Pakistan to crush an Indian-backed terrorist insurgency which was killing Biharis and pro-Pakistan Bengalis. Even before Operation Searchlight which only started on the 25th of March.

The Muhajirs who migrated to rural areas of Sindh are well integrated. As well as the Muhajirs from UP and Delhi who landed in Punjab. Because migrants there adapted the local culture and assimilated.

The only place assimilation did not occur was urban Sindh because the Indian Muslim migrants dominated the bureaucracy of the country and their language was the official language and they felt no need to assimilate with local Sindhi culture.

I don't think you would have supported the creation of Pakistan in 1947. You sound like an ethnic nationalist. Remember, this country was created on religious basis. Not on the basis of some Indus Valley civilization. The movement for creation of Pakistan originated and enjoyed the most support from the Muslims of UP and the Gangetic plains. Not from the Muslims of this so-called 'Indus Valley' civilisation.

There is no room for ethnic nationalism in Pakistan. Ethnic nationalism is one of the worst enemies of Pakistan.

Do you want me to quote to you an Indian forum member here called SarthakGanguly who says Indian Muslims are generally not loyal to India?

Kashmir has always been a religious issue.

Lets recall the 1987 elections of Kashmir. Who was the most popular Kashmiri party in 1987? Oh right, it was the Muslim United Front which was calling for a plebiscite and Nizam e Mustafa (Islamic system).

When India rigged the elections the Kashmiri Muslims revolted.

And only the Muslims.

The Hindus of Kashmir stayed loyal to India.

Clearly it is a religious issue.

Hindus loyal to India and most Muslims (except for secularists) not loyal to India.

And its being a religious issue does not harm the Kashmiri cause at all.

Remember the Pakistan Movement was a religious cause too. It was a Muslim cause and it succeeded in tearing your country apart. The religion factor caused no harm to Pakistan Movement at all and insha allah will prove successful in Kashmir too.

I think we Pashtuns know how much you respect our religious beliefs when the Deobandi moon-sighting committee which has existed for nearly 300 years is ignored in favor of the Barelvi one created barely a few decades ago. That's leaving aside how we have to listen to your derogatory terms for our religious beliefs on Pakistani tv as well as on this forum--with no action being taken.

Have a discussion with a Bengali and let them explain to you how welcome they felt in Pakistan.

Karachi's mayor, Syed Mustafa Kamal, considers these ethnic Pashtuns a threat. In his eyes, they are plotting to take over the city.

"These Pashtuns means like fundamentalist — religiously fundamentalist, religiously extremist," Kamal says. "They are coming in. When it comes to ethnicity, when it comes to Islam they all are ... the same."

The mayor gives a tour of the area, driving past squatter neighborhoods and Islamic schools. He passes the area where the journalist Daniel Pearl was found slain. And he points out the window at a bearded man.

"The man who's coming in front of you ... look at him, look at his face," Kamal says.

The mayor says he is convinced that Pashtuns are planning the locations of the illegal housing settlements. He says they are choosing strategic spots that block his own plans for the city.

"It's a very strategic location, you see?" Kamal asks. "The superhighway is there. They can control the whole highway. ... They had a master plan before me. And they definitely have a master plan."

Speaking with several residents of the city's new settlements, it's clear that not all are Pashtuns. And they seemed to have no master plan beyond their next meal.

Karachi's Growth Fuels Demand for Illegal Housing : NPR

Our language isn't the official language of Pakistan. Neither are our religious beliefs given any respect in Pakistan. The judiciary is mostly Kashmiri. The leadership is Kashmiri. And the COAS is also not a Pashtun. Basically apart from it being created using our land, and our blood, there's not much else in Pakistan which is Pashtun.

As for Kashmir and your wars with India, we wish you, the Barelvi community, and generally all non-Pashtuns all the best; just leave us out of your wars. We haven't benefited a jot from Pakistan, despite being sent to the frontlines for it by your jarnails.

And this 'Jazbaa-e-Jihad', well teach it to your children. Hopefully in a few years you can earn a few measly $$$ from the American government by using them as target practice, the same way you sold Pashtuns down the river, while you and yours grow fat in Lahore.

 

[chhota bheem]

Non-muslims change their religion or convert to Islam

Muslims don't change their religion. It is a capital crime to do apostasy under Islamic law.

Lol seriously you belive that.you dont belong to 21st century.
If you belive muslims dont change religion.
So for all the terrorism thats happening all around,when happens all the muslims start saying the terrorists who did are not muslims are actually muslims and Islamic terrorism.

 

[Nilgiri]

What he says has merit because of the area he represents which has a big NRI community and is pro Modi

Fine but it bears no relevance to solving Kashmir dispute.

It does not put one iota of pressure on Pakistan....just like IOC supporting Pakistan stance at various times does not put one iota of pressure on India.

A major country full govt (say P5 , Japan or G8 economy etc..) officially taking one stance over the other means something.