J-31 possibly being tested & evaluated in Pakistan

[Armchair]

Indeed, Ukraine is probably in an even more dubious position than Pakistan when it comes to being able to secure weapons from abroad. Granted, they don't have many active programs, but the R&D + industrial expertise for developing some inputs, e.g. engines, is certainly there to nurture provided there's funding available.

Ukraine needs an air force. They are stuck flying MiG-29s and FLANKERS without a meaningful future. Their planes are now 30 years old. Need to be replaced, but Russia most certainly wouldn't be a source.

At the same time, going for Western weapons would mean essentially surrendering the massive aviation infrastructure they have. So their president had decided that they will build engines for "new" MiG-29 inspired aircraft.

Meanwhile, Motor Sich was taken over by a Chinese company, and they attempted to move out important equipment out of the country. The secret service got involved, and a court ruled that the assets of the Chinese were to be frozen until further notice.

Motor Sich already builds an afterburning turbofan for the Chinese L-15. If they can basically make a new engine, roughly the size of an RD-33 / RD-93, with the benefit of the technologies available today and the kind of output available, they can optimize this core to be more efficient.

Its always less efficient to upgrade an old design. This is because the RD-33 was designed with a specific thrust rating in mind. It was optimized for that. Now, if you put better turbines, and do other such things - like increase the wet thrust by pumping out more fuel in the combustion chamber, you can increase thrust, but from an overall system perspective, your solution will be less than optimal.

You could try to add an extra fan stage, but again, because the petals of the other stages have already been determined, your solution will be less optimal.

If you now take a brand new, clean sheet design, you'd be able to do more. You could add an extra fan stage, and it could make your engine give you better thrust. You could optimize the design from a fluid dynamics perspective, using the new technology - single crystal blades.

Now, since Motor Sich is currently building engines in China in a joint venture, including an afterburning turbofan engine for a Chinese LIFT, and this joint venture is the only major private engine venture in China, it is easily possible that this for profit organization wants a piece of the JF-17 pie. That, in collaboration with PAF they designed an RD-93 substitute. Thus fulfilling both the Ukrainian need and the PAF one - as well as the Chinese domestic requirement.

 

[Shabi1]

Did some searching, the Ukrainian Legkiy Boiviy Litak (LBL) – i.e. “Lightweight Combat Aircraft” is more of a strike aircraft with LIFT capability like L-15. Looks to be a smaller F-CK-1. Proposed power plant which they will develop are two I-322F turbofans. Each AI-322F will have an after burning thrust output of 41.19 kN. Infact the prototype might fly with the AI-25 which also equips our K-8s

Of no use to Pakistan or the JF-17. Also engine development costs twice as much and takes twice as long compared to air frame development. Best Pakistan rely on the best available option rather than get bogged down with new development.

And if anyone is wondering why Ukraine is not a JF-17 prospective customer it is because they have issues buying anything with Russian components and they have a local aviation industry they have to support.

 

[Armchair]

Did some searching, the Ukrainian Legkiy Boiviy Litak (LBL) – i.e. “Lightweight Combat Aircraft” is more of a strike aircraft with LIFT capability like L-15. Looks to be a smaller F-CK-1. Proposed power plant which they will develop are two I-322F turbofans. Each AI-322F will have an after burning thrust output of 41.19 kN. Infact the prototype might fly with the AI-25 which also equips our K-8s

Of no use to Pakistan or the JF-17. Also engine development costs twice as much and takes twice as long compared to air frame development. Best Pakistan rely on the best available option rather than get bogged down with new development.

And if anyone is wondering why Ukraine is not a JF-17 prospective customer it is because they have issues buying anything with Russian components and they have a local aviation industry they have to support.

Yes, but there is some confusion as to what the "LCA" is. According to some accounts its what you have posted above, but other accounts suggest its a MiG-29 ripoff. Which could also make sense because MiG-29s are the mainstay of their fleet.

Given Soviet history, they could have tooling and blueprints of RD-33s. If they have been working on this for the last 5 years, they may just have a nearly finished product by now.

 

[messiach]

No, three yr ago i have worked on Ni Alloys vs CMCs.

The new trend seems to be CMC which is progressively replacing alloy parts.

You forgot russian bear. A lot goes behind the scenes.

I understand that we'd never make ourselves beholden to others?

 

[Bilal.]

No, three yr ago i have worked on Ni Alloys vs CMCs.

What was the crux of the finding, does it measure well to the promise? I might be wrong, but its not just the CMC but the coating thats the key to make it all work.

 

[araz]

After getting some leads from this thread (thanks @ACE OF THE AIR ) I found out that Ukraine is developing a MiG-29 engine and a MiG-29 ish fighter. This could mean PAF tapped into this and Motor Sich / Progress is going to come up with an engine for their MiG 29s and LCA (they are calling their future aircraft Light Combat Aircraft - the irony of it!)

It seems a tall order for Ukraine to develop a fighter alone. It would make sense for them to work with PAF either for key subsystems (engine) or even for the airframe.

An interesting thought however my concern remains that PAF will not put its future on the line for an untested product. Whenever a new product is produced it has teething problems. A crash in the initial stages could irreversibly harm the reputation of the JFT. It would give all other providers an excuse to call JFT "A cheap and unreliable" fighter and start adverse propaganda. So far the evolution of JFT has been stage managed very carefully to mitigate such an instance. So much as the thought is interesting it sems unlikely at least to me. If PAF is going to go for an engine change it will go for a very reliable and experienced name(EJseries???, )

 

[Armchair]

An interesting thought however my concern remains that PAF will not put its future on the line for an untested product. Whenever a new product is produced it has teething problems. A crash in the initial stages could irreversibly harm the reputation of the JFT. It would give all other providers an excuse to call JFT "A cheap and unreliable" fighter and start adverse propaganda. So far the evolution of JFT has been stage managed very carefully to mitigate such an instance. So much as the thought is interesting it sems unlikely at least to me. If PAF is going to go for an engine change it will go for a very reliable and experienced name(EJseries???, )

Problem is, there is no suitable engine from RR that would fit the needs of JFT. Messiach has given us a real puzzle here, and I am relishing trying to solve it. Layulka Saturn is another possibility. D-30 -based design could be a long-shot. https://flotprom.ru/industry/images/Saturn_eng.pdf

I do see the point that a new engine from Motor Sich may not be held in as high a regard as needed for a single engined fighter. On the other hand, if they had the blue-prints and the tooling, and could show PAF a long history of building quality parts for their RD-33s, an uprated RD-93 doesn't seem like something that would be a problem.

Soviet strategy clearly suggests tooling must have been available in the Ukraine for RD-33 manufacture. Still, I'm more inclined to your view than mine as the more rational argument.

 

[araz]

Problem is, there is no suitable engine from RR that would fit the needs of JFT. Messiach has given us a real puzzle here, and I am relishing trying to solve it. Layulka Saturn is another possibility. D-30 -based design could be a long-shot. https://flotprom.ru/industry/images/Saturn_eng.pdf

I do see the point that a new engine from Motor Sich may not be held in as high a regard as needed for a single engined fighter. On the other hand, if they had the blue-prints and the tooling, and could show PAF a long history of building quality parts for their RD-33s, an uprated RD-93 doesn't seem like something that would be a problem.

Soviet strategy clearly suggests tooling must have been available in the Ukraine for RD-33 manufacture. Still, I'm more inclined to your view than mine as the more rational argument.

I agree the riddle is indeed puzzling but I can only think of the EJ200/230 Series. Turkey is likely to start rolling those out giving us some security against sanctions. It is more expensive than what we have but also gives more oomph to the jet while consuming less juice. MTBO is longer and engine life is much more than RD series. It is reliable and might be more palatable to the house of Saud and a good word from them might open a few doors for us. So it seems likely. Extend this and you see a line leading towards a viable purchase of a twin engined jet which will be compatible with the neighbours purchase and inducting the engine before might make it a much more viable option. Seems the only logical product to me if we are not going back to the Red bear for the RD93MA.
A

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Problem is, there is no suitable engine from RR that would fit the needs of JFT. Messiach has given us a real puzzle here, and I am relishing trying to solve it. Layulka Saturn is another possibility. D-30 -based design could be a long-shot. https://flotprom.ru/industry/images/Saturn_eng.pdf

I do see the point that a new engine from Motor Sich may not be held in as high a regard as needed for a single engined fighter. On the other hand, if they had the blue-prints and the tooling, and could show PAF a long history of building quality parts for their RD-33s, an uprated RD-93 doesn't seem like something that would be a problem.

Soviet strategy clearly suggests tooling must have been available in the Ukraine for RD-33 manufacture. Still, I'm more inclined to your view than mine as the more rational argument.

I agree the riddle is indeed puzzling but I can only think of the EJ200/230 Series. Turkey is likely to start rolling those out giving us some security against sanctions. It is more expensive than what we have but also gives more oomph to the jet while consuming less juice. MTBO is longer and engine life is much more than RD series. It is reliable and might be more palatable to the house of Saud and a good word from them might open a few doors for us. So it seems likely. Extend this and you see a line leading towards a viable purchase of a twin engined jet which will be compatible with the neighbours purchase and inducting the engine before might make it a much more viable option. Seems the only logical product to me if we are not going back to the Red bear for the RD93MA.
A

One variable could be the TFX's turbofan platform. Note, although RR looks like the favourite technical partner, I don't think TAI has chosen its engine partner yet. IIRC, the Russians are also interested in the program.

Viktor Kladov, director of international cooperation and regional policies at Rostec, a Russian defense conglomerate, told press at the Eurasia Airshow in Antalya, Turkey, that his company would prepare a proposal for cooperation with Turkey on aircraft engines. “We could supply an engine,” he said.

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...races-ahead-as-russian-firm-reveals-interest/
​

Let's say TAI chooses RR, that still leaves us with the Russians clearly offering an engine platform of some kind to TAI. It could be a new platform, but whatever the case (new or RD-93MA), the PAF can avail the potential opportunity.

​

 

[Armchair]

Quite a puzzle that messiach has given us.
Namely, an engine that is neither an RD-93 upgrade, nor a WS-13 / WS-19.
Araz makes a good point that this engine is not going to be from some relatively unknown engine manufacturer due to PAF past behavior patterns.
It obviously cannot be Rafale engines nor RR, the first because of politics, the second because of lack of technical parameters that are suitable.

It can't be an American engine either.

What does that leave us? Really, what does that leave?

Kaveri?

Jokes aside, when I woke up this morning, I a light bulb lit up in my head. in my view, the most likely answer lies in NPO Saturn.

There has been constant talk of Russia uprgrading its aircraft engines, and the real brunt of the substantive upgrade has been done by Saturn. Lyulka was in fact absorbed into Saturn, which was a key engine designer.

Just as the 117 brings in some key technologies, and this has been used in the FLANKER with the 117S, the RD-33 / RD-93 has needed the equivalent upgrade. Klimov may not have the technical capacity to upgrade this engine in the way that Saturn can. This means that the RD-93 was taken as the base design, and Saturn worked on upgrading and modernizing it.

This new engine would thus fit the PAF need for maturity (as its based on the RD-93), as well as being relatively modern and upgraded. Given the low Rouble rate, it would also very likely be competitive versus a Chinese offering.

This is my best guess, based on the available information given.

I agree the riddle is indeed puzzling but I can only think of the EJ200/230 Series. Turkey is likely to start rolling those out giving us some security against sanctions. It is more expensive than what we have but also gives more oomph to the jet while consuming less juice. MTBO is longer and engine life is much more than RD series. It is reliable and might be more palatable to the house of Saud and a good word from them might open a few doors for us. So it seems likely. Extend this and you see a line leading towards a viable purchase of a twin engined jet which will be compatible with the neighbours purchase and inducting the engine before might make it a much more viable option. Seems the only logical product to me if we are not going back to the Red bear for the RD93MA.
A

Araz, the problem is that if you look at the technical specs of the EJ, its completely unsuitable for JFT needs. It may fit in with Azm though. Are we looking at two different engines? Is the Block III engine different from the Azm engine or are they the same?

If they are two different engines, then it is possible that the Azm engine is an EJ. But again, I doubt PAF would make plans on thin air - given no production deal for EJ-200 has taken place with Turkey.

I think I've jumped on the assumption - messiach was talking about Azm engines, and I presumed she also meant JFT3 engines.

 

[messiach]

AlliedSignals program could not achieve desired objectives. Ni alloys are far well tolerated. Current CMC have limited scope.

What was the crux of the finding, does it measure well to the promise? I might be wrong, but its not just the CMC but the coating thats the key to make it all work.

Too many if's.

Quite a puzzle that messiach has given us.
I think I've jumped on the assumption - messiach was talking about Azm engines, and I presumed she also meant JFT3 engines.

 

[Armchair]

AlliedSignals program could not achieve desired objectives. Ni alloys are far well tolerated. Current CMC have limited scope.



Too many if's.

So my speculation remains an NPO Saturn upgraded RD-93 type. Unless you feel pity on us and give us a few more tid bits to chew on, that seems to be Occam's Razor right there.

 

[CriticalThought]

So my speculation remains an NPO Saturn upgraded RD-93 type. Unless you feel pity on us and give us a few more tid bits to chew on, that seems to be Occam's Razor right there.

This is the nth time I am seeing you misusing Occam's Razor. In your case, its correct application is "I don't know".

 

[ziaulislam]

As long as anything delivers 15-20% more thrust with modern FADEC features we are fine

 

[messiach]

Keep watching block-3 evolve, that would give you leads to Pak NGF. I know you are desperate to know but we carry professional obligations.

So my speculation remains an NPO Saturn upgraded RD-93 type. Unless you feel pity on us and give us a few more tid bits to chew on, that seems to be Occam's Razor right there.