J-31 possibly being tested & evaluated in Pakistan

[randomradio]

Answers to your questions, dear Mastan Khan Sahib

Qtn: why is it an indigenous design---why---what is the reason behind it---what is the engineering base behind it to have own design rather than the already existing J31---.

Answer: J-31 is a poorly designed plane, made from drawings hacked from the country you belong to. They are severely underpowered, with only an outside chance, based on the WS-19 to be successful. Depending on how successful that project can or cannot be. Going by past record, China will stumble and fall or take an inordinately long time.

Qtn: How is it that Pakistan can afford to experiment when the enemy is inducting aircraft after an aircraft---?
Answer: Tejas isn't an aircraft, its a unicorn. 36 Rafale. And giant numbers of aircraft going out of service. Isn't it you who taught us how without R&D no nation can succeed? That the great trial and error method of the US was what made it great? By the same token the JF-17 shouldn't have been developed and was "treason" too? But you keep writing good stuff about the JFT, so I'm confused.

Why can't PAF take a low-cost, low risk approach to building a next generation aircraft? Or be called traitors?

Qtn: Hasn't the Paf learnt from JF17 that such projects run 10-15 years behind with just one hiccup---
Answer: Did they have to learn from the JF-17 that, or could they just have learned that from reading about past combat aircraft development projects?
Was the JFT a success? Yes
Why can't it replicate and improve upon that success? Why Mastan Khan WHY?

Qtn: It looks like the Paf has bigger egos than their brains---
Answer: It takes brains and guts to build a fighter. Which PAF successfully has. I'm sure fighter pilots have big egos. At least its not suicidal like in the case of India, or treasonous as is the case of the USAF.

Qtn: It is more like a di-ck measuring contest---
Answer: Against whom? IAF di-cks are legendarily small - the size of their LCA. IAF simply is unlikely to field its own 5th gen indigenous fighter, specially with the unceremonious death of the FGFA. Who is PAF comparing its di-ck with? China? Russia? Turkey? Europe?
Do you really believe PAF would ever have built the JFT let alone Azm, if USA gave them F-16s?
PAF would have been riding F-16s till kingdom come if they had the option.
PAF is in a corner with only Chinese planes available to it. J-10s for $65 million a piece. With engines prone to flameout and long spoolup times.
What magical di-ck options does PAF have?

j-31 depends on a massive leap in engine technology - from RD-93 copy to F-414 class. This is the risky option. Its airframe will generate massive drag. Its a flying brick. Read what GLAAAR has to say about the aerodynamics of the F-35. Then compare the engine thrusts on the Chinese knockoff, which has even more drag and possibly weight.

The low risk option is to develop a low-risk airframe with the help of Chengdu. SAC does not have experience designing contemporary airframes. Go to a company that does. Even if MK calls you a traitor for it.

You are a funny guy. It's clear you know nothing about the LCA program.

IAF di-cks are legendarily small

Careful though, ours actually works as intended.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Neither of these.

Domestic engine?!

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

The first article from Janes only has a picture of a twin engine, at least the free part (I'm not a subscriber).
The second article only talks about RR and Kale, nothing about Ukraine? I believe the UK will not give Turkey a contemporary engine, but that's just my opinion nothing more. And will take a long time to develop this, if it gets developed at all.
Its remarkably naive on the part of Turkey to still be buying F-35s and trying to develop tanks using Germany / Austria (a big flat slap they got on their face, after years wasted and $$$). Still not learning, they have now ventured into spending billions on RR and BAe.
Reminds me of the adage - a fool and his money are soon parted.
PAF cannot hope anything out of this except sub-systems perhaps.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...n_188-transport-will-meet-nato-standards.html

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/ukra...ile-turbojet-engine-and-tank-projects.371305/

https://quwa.org/2016/05/05/ukraine-will-develop-new-turbofan-engine-fighters/

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turkey-ukraine-defense-industry-ties-are-booming.499593/

 

[Cookie Monster]

If you are looking for a slim,curvy fighter you shall be extremely disappointed.


Neither of these.

Just out of curiosity I was wondering if u could shed some light on why Pak chose to go with a clean sheet design?

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

Just out of curiosity I was wondering if u could shed some light on why Pak chose to go with a clean sheet design?

You want something like this

 

[Cookie Monster]

You want something like this

?

 

[Armchair]

If you are looking for a slim,curvy fighter you shall be extremely disappointed.


Neither of these.

Thanks Messiach, that is very intriguing and interesting. Wonder if the same engine is going into the Block 3.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...n_188-transport-will-meet-nato-standards.html

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/ukra...ile-turbojet-engine-and-tank-projects.371305/

https://quwa.org/2016/05/05/ukraine-will-develop-new-turbofan-engine-fighters/

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/turkey-ukraine-defense-industry-ties-are-booming.499593/

Hi my friend, the first link is about the 50 ton transport, not about a fighter engine. Basically a rebranding and re-engining of a Ukrainian design.

Next is about a turbo-jet engine, which are outdated and antiquated. Best guess - its for their cruise missile program. Cruise missile engines still sometimes use turbo-jet engines, but are completely different from fighter jet engines. In theory though - the F-5 and F_CK-1 used engines that were originally basically CM engines.

Third link suggests a Ukraine has an interest in but its at "will" stage. Without serious financing and backing, such a vague requirement of replacing MiG-29 and FLANKER engines is wishful thinking.

However, if PAF did invest in such an engine, it could be a way forward. Motor Sich I believe has the expertise.

Turkey in theory could keep this as a backup option to RR.

Now, if you got a new updated core (with more fan stages), used Chinese single-crystal technology for the fans, and used Ukranian expertise for the overall design and the hot sections, you could have a reasonable engine, not in the class of RR or US engines, but perhaps something equal to the French. In my opinion at least, which is not backed by any expertise in that field.

Interesting, just found this: http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...ukraine-wants-build-its-very-own-mig-29-19837

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

the first link is about the 50 ton transport, not about a fighter engine. Basically a rebranding and re-engining of a Ukrainian design.

The engines of the 50ton aircraft are available.

Next is about a turbo-jet engine, which are outdated and antiquated. Best guess - its for their cruise missile program. Cruise missile engines still sometimes use turbo-jet engines, but are completely different from fighter jet engines. In theory though - the F-5 and F_CK-1 used engines that were originally basically CM engines.

These are for the Turkish trainer aircraft.

By the way there is a Chinese Ukrainian joint venture too.

 

[Incog_nito]

I wish to see J-20 in PAF colors being assembled @ Kamra

 

[messiach]

Once HIP SC grain boundary elimination is achieved there is no limit to engine development. No its not a domestic engine.

Domestic engine?!

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Once HIP SC grain boundary elimination is achieved there is no limit to engine development. No its not a domestic engine.

I understand that we'd never make ourselves beholden to others, but has there been an effort to include co-procurement partners for Project Azm? After all, more buyers = more scale and an opportunity to gain foreign-currency.

There are numerous countries for whom the F-35, FCAS, etc are untenable, yet at the same time, buying from China directly also untenable. Think: South Africa, Brazil, the Eastern European, North African, etc states. Is exporting FGFs to these countries also on the roadmap?

 

[Bilal.]

Once HIP SC grain boundary elimination is achieved there is no limit to engine development. No its not a domestic engine.

The new trend seems to be CMC which is progressively replacing alloy parts.

 

[Armchair]

I understand that we'd never make ourselves beholden to others, but has there been an effort to include co-procurement partners for Project Azm? After all, more buyers = more scale and an opportunity to gain foreign-currency.

There are numerous countries for whom the F-35, FCAS, etc are untenable, yet at the same time, buying from China directly also untenable. Think: South Africa, Brazil, the Eastern European, North African, etc states. Is exporting FGFs to these countries also on the roadmap?

After getting some leads from this thread (thanks @ACE OF THE AIR ) I found out that Ukraine is developing a MiG-29 engine and a MiG-29 ish fighter. This could mean PAF tapped into this and Motor Sich / Progress is going to come up with an engine for their MiG 29s and LCA (they are calling their future aircraft Light Combat Aircraft - the irony of it!)

It seems a tall order for Ukraine to develop a fighter alone. It would make sense for them to work with PAF either for key subsystems (engine) or even for the airframe.

 

[ACE OF THE AIR]

After getting some leads from this thread (thanks @ACE OF THE AIR ) I found out that Ukraine is developing a MiG-29 engine and a MiG-29 ish fighter. This could mean PAF tapped into this and Motor Sich / Progress is going to come up with an engine for their MiG 29s and LCA (they are calling their future aircraft Light Combat Aircraft - the irony of it!)

It seems a tall order for Ukraine to develop a fighter alone. It would make sense for them to work with PAF either for key subsystems (engine) or even for the airframe.

Pakistan can not purchase these engines as they are being exported to India.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

After getting some leads from this thread (thanks @ACE OF THE AIR ) I found out that Ukraine is developing a MiG-29 engine and a MiG-29 ish fighter. This could mean PAF tapped into this and Motor Sich / Progress is going to come up with an engine for their MiG 29s and LCA (they are calling their future aircraft Light Combat Aircraft - the irony of it!)

It seems a tall order for Ukraine to develop a fighter alone. It would make sense for them to work with PAF either for key subsystems (engine) or even for the airframe.

Indeed, Ukraine is probably in an even more dubious position than Pakistan when it comes to being able to secure weapons from abroad. Granted, they don't have many active programs, but the R&D + industrial expertise for developing some inputs, e.g. engines, is certainly there to nurture provided there's funding available.