What's new

J-20 not yet ready for export: Jane’s Defense Weekly

That's a trick. Since you know how to use photoshop, you should know you did it wrongly. You blurred the image which means you removed the details.

The actual image displayed on different TV will be as below:

10717946784_fe88df1f94_o.jpg


Now, you tell me, do you want big TV?

IPhone4 and IPhone5S have the same panel except the physical size, they just cut it to 4in from 3.5in.
The resolution become to 1136x640 from 960x640.

But, small panel, though the ppi can be made very high, the visual field will be limited. This is the penalty. That means beyond a short distance, your eyes will cannot distinguish dot and its next. This is why people want a big TV, big visual field. Same thing happen on radar, n particular case, you will don't know the coming aircraft is one or two on a small radar.

Naturally, with the same T/R module (same density), F-22/15 will have more T/R than F-35, resulted a better performed AESA. No reason that more "advanced" T/R module cannot be installed on F-22 but can only be on F-35.

J-20 is no exceptional.

The bigger, the better, always.

At you for real?

The photograph I quote is not from photoshop. But the wiki page explaining how pixel magnification works

Resolution mean how many LED pixel lighting up a digital image, no matter how big your TV is, you pixel will stay the same, in a 4k TV, the LED projection pixel is still 4096 pixel x 2160 pixel

So, for a larger TV to display pixel over the 4k scale, say you have the following pixel arrangement

AB
1 2

If you require a 2x magnification the pixel will become

AABB
AABB
1122
1122

4k pixel is fixed, the larger the TV you got, the larger the scaling you need

Please do read this before comment

hqx - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Image scaling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
.
At you for real?

The photograph I quote is not from photoshop. But the wiki page explaining how pixel magnification works

Resolution mean how many LED pixel lighting up a digital image, no matter how big your TV is, you pixel will stay the same, in a 4k TV, the LED projection pixel is still 4096 pixel x 2160 pixel

So, for a larger TV to display pixel over the 4k scale, say you have the following pixel arrangement

AB
1 2

If you require a 2x magnification the pixel will become

AABB
AABB
1122
1122

4k pixel is fixed, the larger the TV you got, the larger the scaling you need

Please do read this before comment

hqx - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Image scaling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

1) The wiki is talking about resolution, not about the panel size. You were confused at an ending of 4K is worse than VGA.

2)Wiki is wrong to illustrate by using a blur the image here. (the 2nd picture file name is 581px-Matakis_-_blurred.jpg. The up-scaling will never lose any original data, blur will do.

3)The case you quoted is to explain what happened when a low resolution video displayed on a 4K monitor. How about we play a 4K source video on 4K TV, not a VGA on 4K?

4) When we have the same resolution (this what we are talking about, same T/R module),eg, a movie in 4K format naturally, the big size panel has the advantage.

Is this size-matter thing very difficult to understand, or difficult to admit?
 
.
1) The wiki is talking about resolution, not about the panel size.

2)Wiki is wrong to illustrate by using a blur the image here. (the 2nd picture file name is 581px-Matakis_-_blurred.jpg. The up-scaling will never lose any original data, blur will do.

3)The case you quoted is to explain what happened when a low resolution video displayed on a 4K monitor. How about we play a 4K source video on an old TV?

4) When we have the same resolution (this what we are talking about, same T/R module),eg, a movie in 4K format naturally, the big size panel has the advantage.

Is this size-matter thing very difficult to understand, or difficult to admit?

1.) I WAS talking about resolution and pixel, panel size never matter, as long as its ran 4k the. It doesn't matter if that's a 50 inch or 60 inch, YOU WILL ONLY GOT 4K original resolution, it's just the matter of how much anti stretching math your TV can do

2.) upscaling will blur the original image, instead of using 1 original pixel to represent a single pixel, you use 2 or 4, thus the stretching

3.) what I was describing is how to fill the pixel, it's the same from projecting a lower resolution video streaming on a 4K TV or a 4k video displaying on a 60 inch or 100 inch TV, same concept

This is because there are more than 4k (4080) pixel at both 50 inch (4800 pixel) and 60 inch (5780 pixel) so for either TV you will need upscaling, not downscaling

Inchs to Pixels (Y) Conversion Calculator

4.) again, there are more than 4 k pixel on either 50 in and 60 inch TV, if the anti-stretching calculation is the same, 50 in TV will give you better image

So, you are wrong
 
.
1.) I WAS talking about resolution and pixel, panel size never matter, as long as its ran 4k the. It doesn't matter if that's a 50 inch or 60 inch, YOU WILL ONLY GOT 4K original resolution, it's just the matter of how much anti stretching math your TV can do

2.) upscaling will blur the original image, instead of using 1 original pixel to represent a single pixel, you use 2 or 4, thus the stretching

3.) what I was describing is how to fill the pixel, it's the same from projecting a lower resolution video streaming on a 4K TV or a 4k video displaying on a 60 inch or 100 inch TV, same concept

This is because there are more than 4k (4080) pixel at both 50 inch (4800 pixel) and 60 inch (5780 pixel) so for either TV you will need upscaling, not downscaling

Inchs to Pixels (Y) Conversion Calculator

4.) again, there are more than 4 k pixel on either 50 in and 60 inch TV, if the anti-stretching calculation is the same, 50 in TV will give you better image

So, you are wrong

Sounds like you are new of the image process.

1) The same resolution 50" and 60" TV display at different physical size and thus cast different visual field for viewer. That's why people prefer bigger screen, if TV is not enough, go for IMAX.

Another good example is 2x the iphone app on IPad, same resolution actually, but later is easier to handle.
*Thats the advantage of a big size panel.

2)Stretch is a work of software, it never lost any data neither add any extra data, it just duplicated. Image quality will be the same without better or worse.
But it is clear you cannot display a 4K image on a 1080 screen at full size.

*That's the advantage of high resolution.

3)If use the same ppi panel -- as the same T/R module --- bigger screen will achieve higher resolution.

* That's the advantage of the possibility only belong to a bigger panel compared with smaller one.


4) Same resolution, 50" is better than 60".... you made Samsung, Sony, Sharp designer and 70billion-1 (you) people laugh.
 
.
All i know is J20 is far superior than any fighters IAF has in its inventory. 


Very hard for an Indian to understand. In their mind, China should be in the same level with India which had been proved wrong in 1962.


Does your logic apply to 1937 Sono Japan war? 
China always hype the capability of their plane but when truth come out, world get to know the reality of the Chinese weapon. There hyped 4 and 4.5 generation plane lacks the capability of 3rd generation planes.
 
.
Sounds like you are new of the image process.

1) The same resolution 50" and 60" TV display at different physical size and thus cast different visual field for viewer. That's why people prefer bigger screen, if TV is not enough, go for IMAX.

Another good example is 2x the iphone app on IPad, same resolution actually, but later is easier to handle.
*Thats the advantage of a big size panel.

2)Stretch is a work of software, it never lost any data neither add any extra data, it just duplicated. Image quality will be the same without better or worse.
But it is clear you cannot display a 4K image on a 1080 screen at full size.

*That's the advantage of high resolution.

3)If use the same ppi panel -- as the same T/R module --- bigger screen will achieve higher resolution.
* That's the advantage of the possibility only belong to a bigger panel compared with smaller one.

4) Same resolution, 50" is better than 60".... you made Samsung, Sony, Sharp designer and 70billion-1 (you) people laugh.


Lol whatever you say, I done speaking my pieces, whatever you say and I say will just be repeating, let the general view decide who is a joke and he is not
 
.
Sometimes, reading a thread in the China Defence Forum is like watching kids argue in a classroom. China is like the kid trying hard and working their way to the top of the class, while India is the kid at the back, with learning difficulties, and calling China names because he's jealous China can do what he can't. US is like the current top student, who's paranoid about having his position being stolen away by the new upstart, China, so has to belittle China whenever he gets the opportunity.
 
.
I would love to see that.

In theory, interference of both types involves collisions of two or more waves in time phase differences. If both signals are in exact phase, we will have constructive interference, a sum of both signals. The greater the phase differences, usually with 45 or 90 deg and so on, the less the sum. At 180 deg difference, we have destructive interference.

Things get more problematic on an aircraft. The engines, intakes, exhausts, or wing pylons are areas with the highest potential for BOTH types of interference because of multiple reflections, but it depends on the angle of incidence and the amplitude and phase characteristics of EACH structure inside the beam.

Did I lost you? Probably did...

For major outer structures like the fuselage and flight control surfaces, the odds would be for constructive interference base on how edge diffraction signals will impact the leading edge or surface of other structures downstream. Look at the J-20's canards and show us where there would be multiple reflections the way an engine cavity would.

In order for constructive or destructive interference to happen in the first place two waves have to be in the same place at the same time, and both waves would have to be going back to the enemy radar for it to matter at all.

Furthermore, the only difference between constructive and destructive interference is half a wavelength.

Y5NzMhj.jpg


How are you able to eyeball some internet pictures of the J-20 and able to tell the difference between the two? How do you prove it's happening at all and that it involves the canards? Most importantly, how do you prove this phenomenon is reflecting radar energy back at the enemy radar?
 
Last edited:
.
In order for constructive or destructive interference to happen in the first place two waves have to be in the same place at the same time, and both waves would have to be going back to the enemy radar for it to matter at all.

Furthermore, the only difference between constructive and destructive interference is half a wavelength.
Buddy, just like the rest of the Chinese members here, you learned of interference from me. So you are not telling me or the forum anything new.

Not only that, you failed to explain HOW can a reflected wave changed its phase in the first place. The answer is:

Depending on these factors of the structure that created the reflection:

- Shape
- Size
- Material composition

A 'hard' material would be like a metal plate. The plate would not be absorbant enough so the reflected wave would be out of phase from the original wave.

A 'soft' material would be something like wood, water, or layers of different materials aka 'composites. For the last, layers of feathers on a bird is a 'soft' material and is a natural absorber. If there are any reflection, the wave would most likely be in phase from the original.

The shape and size of the structure that created the reflected wave could make the reflected wave either go either way, but usually the smaller the structure compared to the operating freq, the odds are that the reflected wave will be in phase from the original.

How are you able to eyeball some internet pictures of the J-20 and able to tell the difference between the two? How do you prove it's happening at all and that it involves the canards? Most importantly, how do you prove this phenomenon is reflecting radar energy back at the enemy radar?
Any time we have an array of structures, there exists interference from reflections. The more complex the array, the greater the unpredictability of interference.

Cockpits and engines are cavities. Why are cockpits and engines problematic in trying to control RCS? Because of the many structures of different materials and in varying arrays that created unpredictable phase changes and therefore unpredictable instances of both constructive and destructive interference.

Waveguide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A waveguide is a structure that guides waves, such as electromagnetic waves or sound waves. There are different types of waveguides for each type of wave. The original and most common[1] meaning is a hollow conductive metal pipe used to carry high frequency radio waves, particularly microwaves.

A waveguide is also a cavity. But we do not have a destructive interference issue with waveguides. Why? Because waveguides are empty cavities. If anything, waveguides are conducive towards constructive interference, be it in visible or non-visible spectrum. A length of fiber optic is a waveguide. Same as a square tube in a radar system. So being a cavity alone is not detrimental to RCS control. What matters is anything that is inside the cavity that will create multiple reflections.

What this mean is that the array of the J-20's canards in relation to the fuselage and wings are insufficiently complex to create enough destructive inference to somehow make the canards 'invisible'.

From the front, the canard's leading edge reflected signal will arrive at the seeking radar before the reflected signals from the wing. There will be no interference here. Both canard and wing reflected signals will be out of phase from the original signal but they will be in the same phase with each other. And if we take the Doppler shift into consideration where pulses are compressed as both bodies, aircraft and seeking radar, approaches each other, most likely we will have constructive interference. So your argument that the J-20's canards can be 'designed' in some ways to create destructive interference is not in line with real physics.

As for canard's trailing edge diffraction signals, they will be in phase from the original but they will radiate into free space into all different directions. Some may be detected by the seeking radar, some may collide with the wing's leading edge reflected signal, which probably will be out of phase, and we may (not will) have destructive interference between diffracted and reflected signals. But precisely because the canard is a finite body, it will produce other modes of radiation for the seeking radar to try to detect.

Again...You guys make declarations without providing even reasonable technical explanations to support them but demands others to support theirs. You asked the typical 'How do you know?' of doubters but get offended if the question is turned back to you. 
Then confirm that you are narcisistic
So what if I am? Why do you not use your 'aviation study' to prove me wrong? Put me in my place.

Answer the question: What was your 'aviation study' that you claimed to have?

I have exposed your fraud from the very beginning of our discussion, when you claim that Nozzle and airduct of Pakfa should called "Nacelle", then I busted you with citation what nacelle is, and nacelle is not the same as nozzle or airduct. Should i refresh your memory?
You have 'exposed' nothing of me. If you have any aviation experience at all, especially around jets, you would have known that the word 'nacelle' is often casually used to describe not just the engine housing but the entire structure of housing and engine.

If you now admit that you need measured data, then why you drag rubbish like the above?

Just admit it that static canard of J-20 could also contribute relatively low RCS compared to other object in other 5 gen a/c (gap, bump, round nozzle)


:laugh:
It is funny that you demanded measurement data of me by way of your questions but consistently refused to provide nothing more than opinions that the J-20's canards are irrelevant.

Read this...

Fundamentals of Stealth Design & Concepts of RCS Reduction | Page 3

If you have any 'aviation study' at all, especially in the field of avionics and particularly of radar, it would not matter what I claimed of myself and what I may say. You should be able to provide the readers with at least a basic but reasonably detailed explanation of the principles involved to support your claim.

So what was your 'aviation study'?
 
Last edited:
.
So what if I am? Why do you not use your 'aviation study' to prove me wrong? Put me in my place.

Answer the question: What was your 'aviation study' that you claimed to have?

Dont be OOT.

Doesnt take much aviation knowledge to see that you are fraud.

You have 'exposed' nothing of me. If you have any aviation experience at all, especially around jets, you would have known that the word 'nacelle' is often casually used to describe not just the engine housing but the entire structure of housing and engine.

Now you are playing evasion by claiming that your mistake is something usual in aviation workplace :laugh:

Since when the nozzle of fighter plane called nacelle? nozzle is nozzle, nacelle is nacelle, dont mix it. Remember, you were correcting me by saying that nozzle and airduct should be called nacelle.

Nacelle is housing which is seperate from fuselage. Dont call nozzle or airduct as nacelle, it is totally wrong and prove you are fraud.


It is funny that you demanded measurement data of me by way of your questions but consistently refused to provide nothing more than opinions that the J-20's canards are irrelevant.

Read this...

Fundamentals of Stealth Design & Concepts of RCS Reduction | Page 3

If you have any 'aviation study' at all, especially in the field of avionics and particularly of radar, it would not matter what I claimed of myself and what I may say. You should be able to provide the readers with at least a basic but reasonably detailed explanation of the principles involved to support your claim.

So what was your 'aviation study'?

You were assuming that chinese engineering will design static canard that will create constructive interference. Of course this is stupid.

Blackdragon has explained that static canard could be designed otherwise that will create desctructive interference. Do you assume that designing this way will be very difficult for chinese engineers?
 
.
After "reading" all this debate on some pretty basic concepts, what I will say is this.

If the military industry is anything like the software industry where there is maybe 10 guys who can be truly revolutionary, then I will say that I'm sure none of those people are here.

So, China spent billions of dollars, have thousands of scientists researching, access to all the resources they can want, and they can't even make sense of a stupid pixel @jhungary

As to @gambit

Being a programmer myself doesn't make me Larry Ellison, so please don't pretend to be the authority on this.

Unless you are confident enough to say that you are the equal of our Chinese research team on the J-20 project, please refrain from making simple observations and saying it is no good. If it was that obvious, why would our team not see it?

Don't be those people of Denver Broncos fans, release Tim Tebow!!! Then, Tim Tebow plays, he sucks.


As to this stupid topic, first the J-20 is not even inducted, how could it be ready? Second, unless Jane's Defense has access to our top secret projects, I'm not sure how they can make this call.

If we are to go by reputation, well, how far are we going back? Because it wasn't long ago that America was considered a backwater and Russia a paper tiger.
 
.
After "reading" all this debate on some pretty basic concepts, what I will say is this.

If the military industry is anything like the software industry where there is maybe 10 guys who can be truly revolutionary, then I will say that I'm sure none of those people are here.

So, China spent billions of dollars, have thousands of scientists researching, access to all the resources they can want, and they can't even make sense of a stupid pixel @jhungary

Lol do you know why we started the whole 9 question about pixel?

To be fair, I don't really know how RCS work, but being a professional photographer, I do know how display module play around the digital pixel, I used to put my head in each pixel from my print and look for stuff that does not belong

In this world, if you have a display larger than the digital pixel itself, your image WILL blur, how blur it is depends on how much different between the pixel and the screen

I don't know where Chinese learn about pixel and display setting, this is applied throughout the world, now unless you have some kind of cutting edge technology that you can render a 100% retaining magnification images, a 60 inch TV will always have worse picture quality if the scale software were the same.

I don't know how a self professed software engineer can change that

Me and gambit is here not to discredit the J-20, but rather trying to discredit those member who have no idea what they were talking about.
 
.
Lol do you know why we started the whole 9 question about pixel?

To be fair, I don't really know how RCS work, but being a professional photographer, I do know how display module play around the digital pixel, I used to put my head in each pixel from my print and look for stuff that does not belong

In this world, if you have a display larger than the digital pixel itself, your image WILL blur, how blur it is depends on how much different between the pixel and the screen

I don't know where Chinese learn about pixel and display setting, this is applied throughout the world, now unless you have some kind of cutting edge technology that you can render a 100% retaining magnification images, a 60 inch TV will always have worse picture quality if the scale software were the same.

I don't know how a self professed software engineer can change that

Me and gambit is here not to discredit the J-20, but rather trying to discredit those member who have no idea what they were talking about.

I didn't say anything about the pixel, and btw, any idiot can be a software engineer, I got a degree, but it doesn't make me any smarter, in fact it makes me a heck of a lot stupider than a few that don't. Also, it's not really prestigious or anything being one, I hate it for one thing.

One person can't represent China, now I didn't read the whole argument, but China being able to make Tvs like others make sock puppets, we know a thing or 2 about pixels.

But true enough I'm not sure how this argument started, so....

Almost nobody has any idea on the J-20, it's secret, right now if somebody said the machine is being powered by cotton candy, you can't say it isn't so, it's not probable, but due to the limited info, who's to say what's what.
 
.
As to @gambit

Being a programmer myself doesn't make me Larry Ellison, so please don't pretend to be the authority on this.
But those who support the J-20 are exempt from this? Guess so...

Unless you are confident enough to say that you are the equal of our Chinese research team on the J-20 project, please refrain from making simple observations and saying it is no good. If it was that obvious, why would our team not see it?
There are certain laws of physics, or programming, that neither Chinese engineers nor you nor Ellison can violate. For programming, memory allocation is one example. For RCS control, I explained some of those basic inviolable rules here...

Fundamentals of Stealth Design & Concepts of RCS Reduction | Page 3

What I explained are foundational principles and are in the public domain. Keyword search can be used to verify what I said and to date, no one, not even a Chinese member here, have ever returned and proved to all I misled the readers. By the same token, what they now know about radar detection and 'stealth', they learned from me, certainly not from their own experiences.

If anything, we once had a Chinese-American who claimed to be a physics professor and he declared that the 10-lambda rule violated Born Approximation. I had 1st yr physics university students dropped their jaws at this 'physics professor'. He comes in and does a troll drive-by to support the J-20 occasionally, but to this day, he has yet to explain support for the proclamation that defied several hundred yrs of physics knowledge.

The problem with you Chinese have always been your egos. Fragile egos. You guys simply do not have the emotional maturity to handle a rational debate, especially when you guys have emotionally invested so much into the J-20. Whatever you guys said, it must be correct, real physics be damned, and we have seen this behavior over and over and over again. This time is no different.

I have a good book for you guys...

Celestial Matters - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Celestial Matters is a science fantasy novel, set in an alternate universe with different laws of physics, written by Richard Garfinkle and published by Tor Books in 1996. It is a work of alternate history and meticulously elaborated "alternate science", as the physics of this world and its surrounding cosmos are based on the physics of Aristotle and ancient Chinese Taoist alchemy.
I enjoyed the book very much. Plain old fashioned escapism. Perfect for the Chinese members here.

As to this stupid topic, first the J-20 is not even inducted, how could it be ready? Second, unless Jane's Defense has access to our top secret projects, I'm not sure how they can make this call.
But the Chinese members here can make all kinds of call... 
Dont be OOT.

Doesnt take much aviation knowledge to see that you are fraud.
In other words, you essentially lied about your 'aviation study'. But hey...That was exposed a long time ago anyway. I just enjoy watching you squirm.

Now you are playing evasion by claiming that your mistake is something usual in aviation workplace :laugh:
No 'mistake', kid. The same thing can be found in cars. When a mechanic mention something about the engine, he does not make any 'mistake' by it. The engine can mean the block itself, or the engine block and all the accessories attached to it.

Your problem is that you have no experience and make pronouncements based upon your ignorance and expect others to take it at face value.

You were assuming that chinese engineering will design static canard that will create constructive interference. Of course this is stupid.
No, it is not stupid. It is real physics.

Blackdragon has explained that static canard could be designed otherwise that will create desctructive interference. Do you assume that designing this way will be very difficult for chinese engineers?
He 'explained' nothing. Do you even understand the meaning of the word 'explain'? The best thing you guys can do is make baseless declarations can call it 'explanations'.

No need to continue with you in this debate. You are nothing but a troll.
 
Last edited:
.
Not only that, you failed to explain HOW can a reflected wave changed its phase in the first place. The answer is:

Depending on these factors of the structure that created the reflection:

- Shape
- Size
- Material composition

A 'hard' material would be like a metal plate. The plate would not be absorbant enough so the reflected wave would be out of phase from the original wave.

A 'soft' material would be something like wood, water, or layers of different materials aka 'composites. For the last, layers of feathers on a bird is a 'soft' material and is a natural absorber. If there are any reflection, the wave would most likely be in phase from the original.

The shape and size of the structure that created the reflected wave could make the reflected wave either go either way, but usually the smaller the structure compared to the operating freq, the odds are that the reflected wave will be in phase from the original.

Since you don't know the materials composition and minute differences regarding size and shape of various structures on the J-20, how can you tell whether the reflected waves are in phase or out of phase with regard to the canards and main wings/fuselage?

What this mean is that the array of the J-20's canards in relation to the fuselage and wings are insufficiently complex to create enough destructive inference to somehow make the canards 'invisible'.

If the J-20's canards in relation to the fuselage and wings are insufficient in creating destructive interference, how can constructive interference happen either?

Constructive and destructive interference are two sides of the same coin.

If one can happen, so can the other under slightly different conditions.

Both canard and wing reflected signals will be out of phase from the original signal but they will be in the same phase with each other.

How in the world are you able to know that both reflected signals are in phase with each other by eyeballing some J-20 pictures on the internet?

Let me post an illustration showing constructive and destructive interference side by side.

LnJXcyE.png


Note the difference between a and b. The only thing that differentiates constructive and destructive interference is a slight path length difference.

Now please explain how you're able to determine whether radar waves are in phase or out of phase by eyeballing J-20 pictures online.
 
.

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom