It's a misconception that the way women dress attracts abuse: Mehwish Hayat

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

my argument is that there is a section of society for examples the amish who define morality as a religious concept but they cannot discuss religious issues as per forum rules hence the frustration on their part.

First off, I can't believe you and I are actually engaging in an honest conversation where you're directly expressing your concerns.

I can understand and sympathize with what you're trying to say about people not being able to discuss religion, but the decision to avoid religious discussions was made from experience. People get upset .. extremely upset and angry.

That is why I made the effort to disconnect religion from this debate and defined it very narrowly as a discussion on whether violence or threats of violence (inclusive of sexual assault & harassment) were justified. Islam does not condone violence, so this should have been an easy answer. This is not a discussion on whether certain types of clothing or actions are immoral - that is a different discussion.

Surely we can agree that violence or the threats of violence are NEVER acceptable in any situation, unless in self defence. If we can't even agree on something this basic, then there is no chance of religious discussions being allowed. Religious discussions too must occur in an atmosphere where people can articulate their views without fear of being threatened with violence, and those are likely to become far more heated than this discussion.

 

[El Sidd]

First off, I can't believe you and I are actually engaging in an honest conversation where you're directly expressing your concerns.

Happy Agnostic Festivus i guess

Surely we can agree that violence or the threats of violence are NEVER acceptable in any situation, unless in self defence.

Nobody disagrees with this. not even hardcore extremists

That is why I made the effort to disconnect religion from this debate and defined it very narrowly as a discussion on whether violence or threats of violence (inclusive of sexual assault & harassment) were justified.

The argument is along the same lines as playing violent video games encourages mass shootings.

Even colours bring about different emotions and behaviours, shall we make everyone color blind?

but the decision to avoid religious discussions was made from experience. People get upset .. extremely upset and angry.

it's the selective nature of it.

i do see religious discussions all the time. heck even downright blackmail, i even made a thread which your fellow had it moved on the issue.

i am arguing for the sake that whatever freedom Pakistanis enjoy now can only be taken away rather than the utopian dream of open society if you keep ignoring 90 percent of the population.

 

[Pandora]

Islam has advised both men and women on how to not attract harassment. First of all if you are muslim men then lower you gaze rather than ogling at a woman showing cleavages of wearing revealing clothes. For women wear modest decent clothing one can wear decent clothes even without going all the way to abaya. Both men and women have their instructions and responsibilities in this matter so if they are not following it then dont blame each other for it.

As for mehwish hayat who the hell takes anti harassment advise from these garbage actors. All these people do in the movies and TV serials is show new ways to harass or rape people. Our Drama industry in particular is the biggest source of social poisoning in our society. Our industry simply is unable to make instructive constructive and morally appealing drama.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

It wasnt my choice coming to America.

Poor you. They tied you with ball and chains to Amrika?

I understand that you love to go dance around the planets when you get cornered in an argument

One of the best riposte I have read on PDF for a long time.

GTFO of Islamic Republic. This country was based on a seperate country for Muslims with Islamic Laws

Get this right -

• it is not a Islamic Republic
• it is not for Muslims

Add lack of religious education to this list. If people were taught religion in an academic manner we wouldn't have this extremism either.

You do make a valid point. Only problem is which interpretation, which school of thought, which group would get to decide what is taught.

 

[313ghazi]

Poor you. They tied you with ball and chains to Amrika?
One of the best riposte I have read on PDF for a long time.

Get this right -

• it is not a Islamic Republic
• it is not for Muslims

You do make a valid point. Only problem is which interpretation, which school of thought, which group would get to decide what is taught.

Honestly is an academic common sense approach was taken to any world religion I don't think the worshipper would be a bad person.

As far as Islam is concerned if we were to do a Venn diagram the vast majority of our faith would exist within the overlap.

If we are an Islamic Republic then we ought to make sure that the part within the overlap is taught in a thorough manner, a manner where the values are sold to the participants - rather than rote learnt.

The bits which don't overlap should be pointed out as differences with an expectation that people respect others differences.

Idk what school was like for you, but I learnt RE at school and in later years it focused on morality, character and good behavior rather than the ins and outs of any religion. Tolerance was an expectation from all parts of education with no exception. That could be taught quite easily without religion but it can be reinforced in Pakistan with religion.

Religion education in Pakistan is a shambles. We learnt to make the sounds of a book without knowing what the words mean. For most that's as far as it ever goes. The curse of mullah gardi. When people can't read - the mullah becomes a gatekeeper to God.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Honestly is an academic common sense approach was taken to any world religion I don't think the worshipper would be a bad person.

As far as Islam is concerned if we were to do a Venn diagram the vast majority of our faith would exist within the overlap.

If we are an Islamic Republic then we ought to make sure that the part within the overlap is taught in a thorough manner, a manner where the values are sold to the participants - rather than rote learnt.

The bits which don't overlap should be pointed out as differences with an expectation that people respect others differences.

Great points. I agree 100% with your approach.

Idk what school was like for you, but I learnt RE at school and in later years it focused on morality, character and good behavior rather than the ins and outs of any religion. Tolerance was an expectation from all parts of education with no exception. That could be taught quite easily without religion but it can be reinforced in Pakistan with religion.

Yes, my experiance was similiar

 

[Indos]

Let the women speak out about this matter @Hiraa @Moonlight @rambro @Rimsha Rafique any comment from you all ?

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Islam is concerned if we were to do a Venn diagram the vast majority of our faith would exist within the overlap.

This one is bullseye.

common sense approach

Yes. This is what is sorely needed and often lacking. Take feminism. I think it's a great movement and Pakistan needs it. Fact is many women in Pakistan are oppressed in male dominated society. The shuttlecock burka is exposition of this. on the other hand the uber-feminism you see in the west are often just female terrorists out to punish men. They hate men. They support the notion of a 14 year old walking around half naked and brandishing her sexuality. Touting the flesh and reducing females to an haters is liberation. This is as disgusting as the extremism oppression of females in Pakistan. We need a common sense approach as you mention.

et the women speak out

Women make babies. Men make rules. *Ducks and runs away*

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Islam has advised both men and women on how to not attract harassment. First of all if you are muslim men then lower you gaze rather than ogling at a woman showing cleavages of wearing revealing clothes. For women wear modest decent clothing one can wear decent clothes even without going all the way to abaya. Both men and women have their instructions and responsibilities in this matter

Wearing immodest clothing DOES NOT justify rape or assault if any kind.

The individual who perpetrated the assault is solely responsible for his/her actions, not the individual wearing ‘immodest clothing’.

Show me where the Quran says that a woman wearing immodest clothing getting raped is justified.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Show me where the Quran says that a woman wearing immodest clothing getting raped is justified.

In Islamic law even if the woman was lying naked it would be illegal to have sex with her? Her prone position would not be accepted as invitation to banging her?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Let the women speak out about this matter @Hiraa @Moonlight @rambro @Rimsha Rafique any comment from you all ?

Please look up blanknoise

I'm so proud of Jasmeen.

One of the best riposte I have read on PDF for a long time.

It was A W E S O M E !

Note to myself: try not to cross the path of one AgNoStic MuSliM if you can help it.

 

[AUz]

Just Image a brother,
whose sisters and mother had been wearing these from his childhood. He has seen female naked legs far often at his home, school, markets, beaches and whole society.

These naked legs are not going to make any difference for him.

This is where you are wrong

Few things about me: I grew up in Pak during teen years but then I did my highschool from a small town in US (Montana)....afterwards moved to college and did my Masters too (in bigger states, not in Montana).

So I grew up 'as an American' of sorts. I lived, studied, became friends with all sorts of people. Even white boys from beach town---with liberal moms/sisters---always noticed women sexually more when they wore more revealing clothes. Not even necessarily in a bad way---but to imagine women's bodies become 'normal' to men just because they grow up in that environment is very naive from women.

Infact, the way my American friends talked about women were in many ways more disgusting than how Pakistanis talked about women. Americans were more explicit since they were more sexual experienced. Khair, anyways....I just hope young Pakistani girls stop being naive for their own good lol.

Pakistanis will react way more to women wearing shorts in Pakistan because that's culturally inappropriate and kind of surprising. But just because American men grow up with women wearing shorts, it doesn't mean women in shorts stop arousing sexual attention of men here.

 

[Indos]

Wearing immodest clothing DOES NOT justify rape or assault if any kind.

The individual who perpetrated the assault is solely responsible for his/her actions, not the individual wearing ‘immodest clothing’.

Show me where the Quran says that a woman wearing immodest clothing getting raped is justified.

That is right, but there are always some bad people among human. So this is why for their own safety, it is better to wear appropriate dress. It is clear that in Quran it is said that one of the reason of why women should wear hijab and cover their body is to prevent them for getting disturbed from men.

And It is also clear based on Islamic law that even if a women wear unapropriate dress and then they get raped because of it, it is the men that will be punished. We dont need to discuss something that has been cleared like this.

There should be balance on those two thing and I dont agree for us to force women to wear Hijab like in Iran and Saudi, because it is stated clearly in Quran that there is no compulsion in Islam. Despite so, I do think Anti **** Law should be imposed. Your country, USA, is so liberal in this regard, even they protect their **** industry.

Well, if you live in Indonesia, many of young maid here wear sexy cloth with tight pants and cloths, and you know it some times make us, men, think some thing dirty, but I dont see many rape case here. But it may because many of us are Muslim so better self restrain due to religious thing. Despite so, I think some women do like to seduce us

Please look up blanknoise

I'm so proud of Jasmeen.

Thanks, I will try to look it up

 

[Joe Shearer]

Thanks, I will try to look it up

What Jasmeen and her friends and associates do is to exhibit the clothes that a woman was actually wearing when she was subjected to indecent behaviour. It is astonishing to see; it proved conclusively that clothing had nothing to do with it. They went on to other things, of course, but this is where it started.

 

[Hiraa]

Let the women speak out about this matter @Hiraa @Moonlight @rambro @Rimsha Rafique any comment from you all ?

I did in few previous pages. Modest clothes for everyone. No sleazy clothes. Something that drives between modesty and being modern.
If a women is wearing immodest clothes, there is not right to abuse or assualt her. Lower your gaze and move on.
Men here talking about they get turned on by women wearing immodest clothes. Learn how to keep it in your pants. “Control” yout nafs as stated in Quran. because BELIEVE ME, if men wear immodest clothes, no woman gets turned on. NO ONE!