Israel bars AESA radar export to India

[angeldemon_007]

Looks like little fact like US blocking Israeli attempt of selling EL/M-2052 to anyone including India has got attentions from many. But they forget that USA itself offering these..... which are more powerful than 2052.

I think Israeli radar may be better than US, thats why US is trying to stop them from selling it to India, because they know in a competition between Israel and US radar, Israel will win.

 

[Kinetic]

I think Israeli radar may be better than US, thats why US is trying to stop them from selling it to India, because they know in a competition between Israel and US radar, Israel will win.

No doubts Israeli radars are good and 2052 is one of the best but Israeli technologies cannot be compared with latest US products. APG-79 is the best operational AESA today. Israel got helps from these companies like Raytheon and Northrop Grumman for various joint ventures like Arrow programme. I think 2052 may be as good as APG-79 but certainly not better.

 

[Parashuram1]

I do not see where is the need for a big country like yours to get so insecure because of a couple of reactions. It is understandable that you are facing the Americans for the first time after years of a more 'equal' level of cooperation with the Soviet Union who is known to be a lesser bully due to its ideological compulsions.

But grinding the United States with one deal should not be your thinking. This is pure industrial politics and the most evident case is the bad blood between United States and Sweden over the number of times the former has pressured NATO-aligned Nordic countries to choose F-16s combat aircraft over the Gripen series. A pure game of 'might is right'. Americans call off the shots by selling their equipment and commanding the terms.

If we Swiss being small neutral country are fiercely independent despite having an almost all-American arsenal in air force, you should be laughing this off considering your economic and increased political weight.

 

[luckyyy]

I do not see where is the need for a big country like yours to get so insecure because of a couple of reactions. It is understandable that you are facing the Americans for the first time after years of a more 'equal' level of cooperation with the Soviet Union who is known to be a lesser bully due to its ideological compulsions.

But grinding the United States with one deal should not be your thinking. This is pure industrial politics and the most evident case is the bad blood between United States and Sweden over the number of times the former has pressured NATO-aligned Nordic countries to choose F-16s combat aircraft over the Gripen series. A pure game of 'might is right'. Americans call off the shots by selling their equipment and commanding the terms.

If we Swiss being small neutral country are fiercely independent despite having an almost all-American arsenal in air force, you should be laughing this off considering your economic and increased political weight.

is that mean US might also block the export of GE F414 has india choose Gripen in MMRCA..

 

[jha]

I think it was around Aero india-2009..Rayetheon was pitching a smaller version of APG-79 fro LCA..But since El-2052 was supposedly the prime choice or, DRDO was confident of developing one on its own , nothing moved forward..
In fact there is no need of being sentimental..Even if US has put restriction on the sale, its loss of Israel (and in some way US ) not us .. Too many options are there in the market.. Even now i am hopeful that Israel will work some way out of this and our AESA might come sooner than expected...

 

[jha]

is that mean US might also block the export of GE F414 has india choose Gripen in MMRCA..

No..They wont..126 planes mean atleast 400 engines.. GE is not going to let off of such opportunity. Plus we are already buying ~200 engines for LCA-II. Sweden must have worked something out with them..

 

[rockstarIN]

Yes, the way we got green pine radar, 2052 too follow the same route.

 

[kingdurgaking]

No..They wont..126 planes mean atleast 400 engines.. GE is not going to let off of such opportunity. Plus we are already buying ~200 engines for LCA-II. Sweden must have worked something out with them..

Yeah exactly... SAAB must have been consulted for MK-2 for the engine integration and aerodynamics for Air intake.. I think the Air intake will be mostly like Gripen NG.. but will be under the wing.. This could be to speed up the design...

 

[StormShadow]

Great News...another feather in the cap for people against US goods. US didnot even sell anything and started to play politics. Imagine what happens once we buy US toys. Did Russia ever do this in decades?

 

[kingdurgaking]

Yes, the way we got green pine radar, 2052 too follow the same route.

I guess we are discussing this topic unnecessarily ... AESA for Tejas-2 wil being home made.. while we will take the consultation of other design partners for some modules... which is yet to be finalized.. i guess 2052 is not for MK-2.. May be if the partner is Israel we might get the design modules of 2052... while most of the design of the critical components will be designed by DRDO only...

 

[GORKHALI]

To be honest it simply a waste of time !!we should focus on LCA MK 2 designing and development as soon as possible and avonics except radar . We should just buy off the selves from israel and simply focus on LCA MK2 thats all.

 

[sudhir007]

if we want we will getted from Israel it is just a metter ON THE TABLE OR OFF THE TABLE
and i USA only block this for MRCA contest so saab (Gripen-NG) does not get. coze we like Israeli stuff and if we want to use 2052 for LCA then we surely get it

 

[Dash]

Hi dash,

Now that there is one serious post in this thread again, we can have some serious discussion.

Thank you.

I am trying to analyse the entire sceenario, hope it sheds some light.

But, selling AESA radars small enough for the fighters is definately a big deal! Apart from the US and Israel nobody can claim a mature fighter AESA radar yet .(the french are close with the RBE, though)

That is true, however Israelis still havent dosclosed the system level details for their miniaturized AESA so the capabilities are debatable. I am not talking about Greenpine radar or the swordfish here as they are capable enough. But I will say Israeli radars will be equally good and 2052 is said to have a track ability for 64 targets simultaneously, dont know how far this is true.

Correct, the problem is with the USofA and not Israel. Though I do not think that they will sell any tech without the american blessings.

True, and they did the same thing when India actually was denied Arrow 2 system as the US vetoed it, but never mind they actually gave a reason.....it will violate MTCR.

But things are different in case of AESA. 2 Reasons.

1. Denying AESA to India will actually not harm their sales to India as its not a fighter aircraft but a component, Critical but countries can operate their aircrafts without it. So I as a country will say FO and will approach AESA from France. Will they go to France then?, no France will say FO. Simple. so It doesnt make sense.

2. It makes sense for stopping AESA for Gripen coz Gripen is a serious contender to many of their aircrafts which will damage their sale. All of their approved export aircraft bargain on AESA and if Gripen doesnt have it then it makes a strong pitch for US aircrafts.

3. So if US downplays this saying they dont want US critical techs to go elsewhere....I will refer to point No 1. Now if I refer to point no 1 then Israel will say boss my sales are getting damaged coz India is getting AESA from France and Russia. Doest make business sense. With Obama govt I will say, it matters a lot.

4. We never mentioned about getting TOT on that MMR that has Israeli procesor, so its just an end level user. As we are working on our own processors. So I dont see US telling Israel not to sale AESA to India as we will never ask for TOT there, coz we will ask for TOT on US AESA when they sale their jets if their jet wins, where will they hide?, I dont know.

If US had to block techs to India, then they wouldnt have allowed Israel to be the 2nd largest arms providor in India, where they struggle to get a pie. We are currently in a position to bargain and kick anyone (sad, but thats the way national interests work).


and as far as this goes....

India's home-grown AESA radar effort will soon finalise a developent partner, reports The Indian Express. According to the report, a progressive downselect since December -- when the DRDO first invited bids -- has come down to Israel's Elta and EADS Defence & Security, following the elimination of Selex, Phazotron and Thales. A recent Livefist post on the Tejas AESA is here. Oh, and by the way, I hear the LCA AESA is being developed under something called "Project Uttam".

whoever wins the bid is fine. But if ELTA wins this then they have to ask US if they can allow the tech again..sad...and if US stops them then, things can turn ugly, both with US and Israel, but they are already in the competition, so I know ELTA knows what they are doing.

 

[sancho]

3.Selling AESA as such was never an issue. We have a plethora of working AESA radars manufactured indegenously (Swordfish, Rajendra, Radar for the Indian AEW)
and few of them have heavy Israeli contribution.

But, selling AESA radars small enough for the fighters is definately a big deal! Apart from the US and Israel nobody can claim a mature fighter AESA radar yet .(the french are close with the RBE, though)

I think that there is a difference between selling a radar system for AEW, or ground surveillance and a top of the line fighter radar. The size it not the issue, becaus LCA has a rather big nose to fit a big radar to it as well (AFAIK similar size than the Mig 29 radars). I think it is the capability of the radar itself, that makes it difficult for the US to sell it in high numbers to a foreign country, especially if they have no real control over us.
However, I would like to add 2 other reason as well:


1) US could use this to put more pressure on us to sign such contracts like CISOMA...

2) We are not talking about a direct sale of 2052 here (which btw is also not mature, because it is not operational and ready for any fighter now), but to get it's tech as a base for a co-developed radar. Now this radar is of course aimed on LCA MK2 at first, but if the radar turns out as very capable with those Israeli/US techs, who said we would use it only for LCA? Why not integrate it in an even bigger size into FGFA? Would the US be happy if we have 1 (with AMCA even 2) stealth fighters with such capable radars?

But I will say Israeli radars will be equally good and 2052 is said to have a track ability for 64 targets simultaneously, dont know how far this is true.

That's the figure of the official brochure and is so far the only spec to compare it with other radars. The early Zhuk AE was given with only 30 targets, RBE 2 AA is given with 40, not sure about the US radars though.

whoever wins the bid is fine. But if ELTA wins this then they have to ask US if they can allow the tech again..sad...and if US stops them then, things can turn ugly, both with US and Israel, but they are already in the competition, so I know ELTA knows what they are doing.

I think it will be the other way around, ELTA will only win, if they clear the use/or transfer of US techs before, otherwise it will be very difficult for them.
I think the whole competition was made exactly for this reason, to put pressure on Israel to get clearance and show them that we have other options as well, although it should be very clear that MoD, or our forces would prefer Israel as a partner.

 

[Dash]

I think it will be the other way around, ELTA will only win, if they clear the use/or transfer of US techs before, otherwise it will be very difficult for them.
I think the whole competition was made exactly for this reason, to put pressure on Israel to get clearance and show them that we have other options as well, although it should be very clear that MoD, or our forces would prefer Israel as a partner.

Or lets say this way, ELTA already knows that they have got clearance or they for sure will get clearance. Coz co-developement will lead TOT of techs, atleast inputs on know how, which is a bigger thing than just saling the radar.

On a lighter note...

but to get it's tech as a base for a co-developed radar. Now this radar is of course aimed on LCA MK2 at first, but if the radar turns out as very capable with those Israeli/US techs, who said we would use it only for LCA? Why not integrate it in an even bigger size into FGFA? Would the US be happy if we have 1 (with AMCA even 2) stealth fighters with such capable radars?

This point is very valid. US will not be ok with this, which refers to the same first point I mentioned. but to be honest, both FGFA and LCA Mk2 having such a radar and eventually MRCA getting an AESA will be a challenging network for the adversaries with Phalcon AEW...which US will be a problem for US. But I somehow feel that they have no option here as its bound to happen.