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Islam's image: reformation and makeover

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This is particularly so since the boom of information and the beginning of the information age/internet etc... So the cunning and evil Mullah is no longer in force...

All invented by kaffirs!

Facebook has found a use my friends!!!!

A Jewish conspiracy?

specially when people see a living example of the justice of Islam in application (not just in the books)...

Indeed. But why not? Why not a single live example in 57 Islamic countries?

We saw the most Islamic government of our times-the Taliban. Saudi comes close. Are these your examples?

Whenever a progressive example is presented from the Islamic world, it is always the countries which don't mix Islam with politics.

Why?
 
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The world is coalescing more along ethnic lines than religious lines.

That is the point I am making, albeit with a rider. When it comes to Islam versus members of other faiths, this does not seem to hold true. You would not have a Pakistan separating from India if that were true would you? Or any number of Muslim breakaway conflicts the world over even today. Historically, Islam has either colonized a land completely and totally, to the exclusion of almost all significant minority groups, or where it has not been able to do so, there has been a religion based exclusionary polarization with a breakaway, either attempted or successful. Did we not see the same thing in Kashmir as well? That is why I said in a previous post that the world is not going to be much affected by the liberalization of pockets of Islam, or the behavior of Muslims when they are in a minority. Rather, world opinion towards Islam and its followers will change, albeit slowly, due to the reform in Muslim lands where Muslims are the overwhelming majority.

I would be the first to agree with you, and have actually done the same in all my posts on the subject, where I compare Christianity and Islam as very similar faiths in more ways than one. That is where I also read a lot of sense in Kartic Sri's post earlier of the Islam of today versus the Christianity of a few centuries ago. Maybe it is just an evolutionary path that Islam needs to tread. Who knows. I would also put forward that the branch of Islam of sub-continental Muslims could have a huge role in kick-starting this re-conciliation. In reaching out to the Other world, as a start of its own brand of coalition politics. Pakistan already aligns itself with China. It now only needs to mend fences with India and you would have a lot of dynamics equations turned on their head.

In ending, I would just like to say that it is not religion we are debating here, but institutionalized religion. Religion and Politics are bedfellows. You cannot separate them. Not in Europe. Not in America. Not in India. But isolationism and intolerance is something that can definitely be improved upon by the Muslim world, and that would be the biggest start. Forget about badges of "secularism." Simply recognize the equality of other faiths and stop trying to impose the superiority of your own. That does not lessen the importance of your faith in the eyes of those who choose to follow it. Nor does it impinge in any way on their rights or liberties. Afford those minorities living alongside you the same benefit. At a micro and macro level.
 
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Cosmetic changes wont do. Need to change the mindset of the muslims. One is that quran is always right. Otherone is muslims need to blindly follow mohammed. Third one is separation of Masjid and state.
 
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^^ I think religion (Islam) has been successful in dividing ethnicity and make people with the same roots become enemies.

Has it achieved the same success in uniting various ethnicity? Even tribal loyalties are still intact in the Arab world after 1400 years of Islam, leave alone crossing over to people like Persians, black Africans, South Asians and so on.

I think Indian Muslims have an excellent chance to reform that image and present an inclusive, tolerant face of Islam.
 
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^^ I think religion (Islam) has been successful in dividing ethnicity and make people with the same roots become enemies.

Has it achieved the same success in uniting various ethnicity? Even tribal loyalties are still intact in the Arab world after 1400 years of Islam, leave alone crossing over to people like Persians, black Africans, South Asians and so on.

I think Indian Muslims have an excellent chance to reform that image and present an inclusive, tolerant face of Islam.

The same can be said of any religion that believes in conversion and displacement. Northern and Southern Ireland jump to mind immediately. Remember that Islam is the youngest. So in terms of spread inorganically, it would always have to displace an existing faith, cause by the time it was born, civilizations around the world had already made great progress theologically and spiritually. Where it does so partially, like in India, there is friction. More often than not, where it does so near completely, like in Persia/Iran, such divides would not be significant. As for uniting tribes, and cutting across inter-tribal/factional/feudal loyalties, no religion has been able to. Not even Hinduism right?
 
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^^ Yes but then if it is no different from others, why will it succeed?

If it is different, why don't we see the results?
 
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The point I was trying to make, which you have in your older posts as well, is that religion is never going to be a strong uniting factor over more local/regional ethnic factors, or across diverse humankind. That is a given and is proved daily regardless of what some may like to believe. Was only trying to point out that here it would not be fair to point out to Islam alone. For the results to be seen, one needs to see the world in a non-monochromatic mixed faith light.
 
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This what p!sses of ppl from other religion..y cant u accept other religions..?the disdain towards ppl from other religion is clear in ur above statement..
No wonder islamphobia is in rise all over the world
I have no disdain, nor any other feelings, no opinion. I am just a augur if you will. Just the vector of the message, can't care less about its content.
 
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I have no disdain, nor any other feelings, no opinion. I am just a augur if you will. Just the vector of the message, can't care less about its content.

Fine..then plz dont blame non-muslim ppl for their phobia towards muslims...
 
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I know what he meant. He was saying maybe Christianity isn't all that great, and people put up with it because "Christian" countries have an upper hand in the current scenario.

And once again I don't agree with that. If that was case, many Muslim countries are quite powerful and rich. Saudi Arabia for example.

I never said Christianity is great or not great. I said people will deal with the power brokers and the ruling elite regardless of religious factors.

Christianity's reformation has nothing to do with why people defer to the West, albeit indirectly in the sense that the Church got out of the way of science and allowed the West to dominate the world.

The diamond industry in the world is dominated by Hassidic Jews, who are a very closed community. People deal with them because it's just business. Just as people deal with the Saudis for oil.
 
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You are thinking in the right direction ...

I agree with some of what you say, though not all.

Yes, economic power by itself is only a means to achieve the other two powers that matter more: military and cultural domination. China is well on its way to achieve the first, but faces a significant hurdle in the second because English is entrenched as the lingua franca.

The Arab world has squandered its oil wealth but that was no accident: when the Europeans carved out the Middle East, they made sure to install the most inept yet brutal warlords as their proxy guardians of the oil. Straight from the camel to the limousine, these guys had neither the training nor the vision to use their wealth wisely. The classic case of nouveau riche. Imagine where the Arab world would be if they had been ruled by conscientious and educated leaders like the Scandinavian countries.

Also note that the situation is very different in other oil rich Muslim countries like Malaysia -- they have managed their wealth much better. Perhaps it's because of a large Chinese population; the Chinese have some very good cultural traits, including planning for the future.

I also agree with your observation that the Western world is saving their oil for a rainy day, while letting the Arabs use up theirs first.

Regarding Islam's conquests, I don't think what happened was all that unusual. Invading religions rarely take over the conquered culture, quite the reverse. Look at South America -- the Chrisitanity practised there has a local flavor, quite distinct from the European variety. The same is true for Islam -- it is always a mix of religion and indigenous culture.

Finally, you are somewhat right about the reasons fundamentalism found a foothold in the Islamic world. As the dominant Christian world dictates the rules and double standards, the Islamic countries are powerless to resist. When faced with injustice against Muslims, the fight is taken up by ragtag individuals since the established Muslim governments are quiet, either through impotence or acquiescence. It is this dynamic that fuels Islamic fundamentalism. I believe that so-called Islamic terrorism will vanish as soon as the Muslim world develops a fist strong enough to dissuade the West or the Other. That's because the established narrative is that it is acceptable for organized armies to kill thousands of civilians (and come up with a plausible propaganda), but when anyone else kills civilians it is terrorism. So, terrorism and fundamentalism will disappear only when there is a balance of power and each side has to behave.

I am including the concept of 'fist' to include media power as well as military since the latter is much less useful without the former, to control public opinion at home and abroad.
 
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Not the I mind the thread..
there really is no need to worry about Islam's image.. Islam has, is and will be a religion of peace..
Islam is safe.

Its the image of Muslims that needs revamping.. or more importantly.. not the image.. their understanding of Islam itself.

Islam's image will be affected by their follower's image.

If the followers are good then Islam's image as a whole will improve ; if it is bad then definitely Islam's image will also suffer.

They are not mutually exclusive.
 
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For most people:

Islam is what Muslims do.

Same as it is for all other religions. There is no other way.
 
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You are right. The Muslim world fights amongst itself. As the Christian world once did. But the underlying theme for each faction remains the same. As does the way the Muslim majority comes across to the non-Muslim minority. As does the attitude of the rest of the world, both Christian and Other, towards everything Muslim, regardless of their internal equations. I still feel that the big shake-ups religion-wise have already happened. Each has its own place. The non-Muslim world would not be so bothered were the Muslim world to in-fight within these set boundaries. Its when it boils over that the trouble starts.

The Christian world seems to have reconciled to losing the numbers game eventually. But they will make damn sure that in a world order of coalition politics, their side continues to hold the bigger gun. The real problem with the Muslim world today in such a scenario then is that they are backing themselves into a dead-end corner where they would be forced to fight it out alone, with no hope of other coalition partners, as the rest of the world proceeds to split them into warring fragments incapable of serious damage. The Christian way is so much better that I am surprised that no one in the Muslim world has recognized it yet.

I think you may be reading too much into religion here. The Other, i.e. China and Hinduism, progressed better than the Muslims largely because they emerged from the colonial era intact as a political entity. Every one else, from the Muslm world to Africa to Latin America was deliberately broken up by the Europeans. All these countries have never really recovered from that divide-and-conquer legacy in the sense that in-fighting continues to this day.
 
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