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Islam's image: reformation and makeover

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No I didn't. I don't agree with that point of view. For instance look at what madrassas have done in Pakistan and compare that to the schools being run in Pakistan or even India by Christians.

Christianity is respected for the reforms and the work it has done in the world.

See he did not speak 'teacher', 'banker' in literal meaning, but metaphorically meaning that the Western countries are some of the most technologically advanced and richest countries of the world leading to a development of positive perception of them amongst other people.
 
See he did not speak 'teacher', 'banker' in literal meaning, but metaphorically meaning that the Western countries are some of the most technologically advanced and richest countries of the world leading to a development of positive perception of them amongst other people.

I know what he meant. He was saying maybe Christianity isn't all that great, and people put up with it because "Christian" countries have an upper hand in the current scenario.

And once again I don't agree with that. If that was case, many Muslim countries are quite powerful and rich. Saudi Arabia for example.
 
No I didn't. I don't agree with that point of view. For instance look at what madrassas have done in Pakistan and compare that to the schools being run in Pakistan or even India by Christians.

Christianity is respected for the reforms and the work it has done in the world.

Social reforms in christianity makes its society tolerant and well equipped for economic growth.
Social reform + Economy lead to their respectfull status.
I agree with you that social reforms lead to better economy and are the driving element behind success of Christian society.
 
You clearly dislike Muslims. So why are you on this Forum?

..and u clearly hate hindus...y are u doing debating with us then??

..i dont need to clarify myself to bigots like u,...my muslim frenz know if i hate them or not...and if u feel my posts spew hate..plz report them..mods will see if there are any hate filled posts..
 
I know what he meant. He was saying maybe Christianity isn't all that great, and people put up with it because "Christian" countries have an upper hand in the current scenario.

And once again I don't agree with that. If that was case, many Muslim countries are quite powerful and rich. Saudi Arabia for example.

I know you will bring in the Gulf countries - believe me the Gulf countries have nothing in technology. Each of the key positions in their countries invariably have an Arab boss but the key technological positions will be manned by outsiders mostly Westerners and in some cases Chinese/Indians and even Pakistanis.

What I am saying is West is technologically and militarily advanced. And since most people would want to migrate there for a livelihood they generally have a positive view of them.

But where the Christian (Western) countries have evolved is that they have sorted out their crazy religious nutjobs and have sent them out to other countries to propagating the faith whilst keeping their lands almost free from them.
 
I know you will bring in the Gulf countries - believe me the Gulf countries have nothing in technology. Each of the key positions in their countries invariably have an Arab boss but the key technological positions will be manned by outsiders mostly Westerners and in some cases Chinese/Indians and even Pakistanis.

Fair enough, but just like technology they do have a big bargaining chip in the form of oil.

What I am saying is West is technologically and militarily advanced. And since most people would want to migrate there for a livelihood they generally have a positive view of them.

Thats debatable at best. Migrants have a positive view because of the fair treatment they get in those countries. People can follow their religion and culture as long as it doesn't conflict with the law of the land. You can't do the same in an Islamic country.

But where the Christian (Western) countries have evolved is that they have sorted out their crazy religious nutjobs and have sent them out to other countries to propagating the faith whilst keeping their lands almost free from them.

Thing is almost all of these powerful Western countries are not Christian countries, they are secular. People have positive opinions about Christians because they don't blow up and call for death of people on difference of opinions. People have have positive opinion about Christians cause they are tolerant and they don't force their religion or ways on to you. Go to a Gulf country and you can't even eat in public during Ramadan.
 
That raises an interesting question: is the 'other' forgiving of Christianity because it has reformed, or simply because it dominates the world financially, technologically, militarily and culturally?

It's hard to hold a grudge against your banker, your teacher, your policeman or your favorite entertainer.

Judaism has also had a reformation, but Israeli politics is dominated more by hardliners, including ultra-Orthodox fundamentalists. Yet countries, including India, want to do business with them, partly because they have excellent technology and can provide benefits to their partners.

So, while I agree that Islam needs a reformation, for its own good as much as for the rest of the world, I am not sure that it will be enough to garner respect from the world.

China has always been respected, in a nebulous way, for its ancient culture but proper recognition and respect only came recently with its economic might. Same is true, to a lesser degree, about India.

You are thinking in the right direction, yet slightly off track my friend. Money without Might is of no consequence. Every nation's first prime aim is self preservation. Expansion will always come next. Self preservation can only come from the barrel of a gun, the sharp end of the sword. Be it your own gun, or one you have sworn allegiance to. The one who has the biggest gun controls the world, its wealth, its resources, and its perceptions. Not the one who has the most money. Take Russia for example. Gutted politically. Gutted financially. Still the No.2 power in the world. Yes still No. 2 - ahead of China, with all its money and growing muscle. China is respected today not because of its growing economic clout, but because of its military muscle that is keeping pace to back it up. India is moving along similar lines. Which is where I see the future clash between Christianity and Hinduism. First comes the respect, then the insecurity, and finally the inevitable clash.

So as it has been down the ages, so too is it today and will continue to be till the end of time. First comes the fist, then follow money, culture and technology. As well as reforms, or perception management, depending on which way one chooses to see it. One can choose to be democratic, enlightened and tolerant when one has a big enough fist to ensure the balance of power is not disturbed as a result of such frivolous indulgences. History is witness to the fact that when the fist grows weak, under the softening influence of too much money, indulgence, culture, and reform, it is rudely pushed aside and replaced by a bigger fist. Simply put, the Muslim world simply does not have a big enough fist, and what money it has is largely controlled in a vassal-like relationship by the Christian fist. And when it comes to fists, as I mentioned before, you either have (or develop) only your own, or swear allegiance (and ultimate sovereignty) to a ready-made another. For no one sells a fist when it comes to nation-hood on the world stage. And the fist is only as strong as the hand that controls it and the fist strikes only where its brain directs it to.

I have two other apparently random though ultimately linked thoughts on the subject. One the role of Technology and Industry in shaping today's political world. The other the possible influence of Geography, and a quirk of fate in History. And the link of one with the other. The map of today's world can broadly be cut into three parts - the Christian world on the left, the Other world on the right (dominated by the Hindu and the Chinese world), and the Muslim world sandwiched smack dab in the center.

The Muslim world suffered a few serious disadvantages down the ages. 1) It came in last, giving the others the first mover advantage in the form of reign and consolidation; 2) By the time it came, it was landlocked. To spread it needed to take on Christianity to its West, and Hinduism and China to its east, and by the path of least resistance, the African continent to the south; 3) The colonization of New World, with its land and resources, was lost to the Muslim world because of the Christian bulwark to the sea; 4) The Muslim world spread to a limit to the East, but was never able to absorb either the Hindu or the Chinese civilizations, getting absorbed instead into these ancient cultures, with culturally congruent but limited religious off-shoots in a huge ocean of the non-converted original faiths; 5) To the West they were beaten back, and over time the Muslim world regressed through excesses and over-indulgence and in-fighting into a soft power - Europe was lost; 6) The New World meanwhile was colonized by the sea-faring Christian world, at the ends of the sword and the cannon and the six-gun; 7) Centuries of bloodshed on the European mainland culminated in the two Great Wars, that decimated Europe and Britain (and the Vatican) forever as the center of world power, with the pendulum shifting across the ocean to America. Capitalist America. Christian America. Democratic and slowly more tolerant and less racist America. Industrial America with an unquenchable thirst for Oil;

8) Huge as yet untapped reserves of oil in Alaska and Siberia notwithstanding, the Christian world preferred to pay for Muslim oil instead. The Muslims on their part were only to ready to swap their camels and nomadic desert tents for gold and diamond encrusted palaces and limousines; 9) But this new found wealth and importance was never ever leveraged for political gains, or self-development towards truly sovereign self-reliance economically, culturally, and militarily; 10) The Muslim world instead was ok with accepting American vassal-ship, in return for easily and readily available security and technology, which freed them from the more mundane needs of life to pursue their religious zeal; 11) But the world had changed, conquests and their aftermaths had consolidated, geographical and political boundaries solidified. And now the Muslim world had sold away their fist to the Christians; 12) Instead of reading the writing on the wall, and consolidating what they held through reform and a more enlightened and liberal self-governance, the Muslim world regressed backwards into religious fundamentalism and intolerance and extremism as an internal backlash against the hand that now fed them - the same hand that for centuries had risen against them in a history of holy wars and conquests in whose lingering martial glow they took refuge and sanctuary in.

In all this what Technology did was to finally bring to an end the age of never-ending violent conflict and bloodshed across Europe in the name of religion. Till the advent of flight, wars and conquests were still slow lumbering campaigns limited in geographic spread and scope, giving civilizations the time to morph and/or assimilate. No more was that true. Airplanes made world wars possible. Steam power and turbines made world wars possible. World wars which shook the balance of world power. World wars which destroyed forever the economic, cultural, and technological power centers. Which bankrupted a continent. To the extent that there was now an all pervasive war fatigue that took over the world which for a generation or two did not have enough able bodied men left to fight anyway.

And then came the Bomb that changed everything man knew of war and conquest in two instants of blinding light. And Islam had lost its last chance for a comeback militarily. There is only one chance for Islam now in today's world. And that is to co-exist - both internally as well as externally. As a religiously responsible third axis. Cause the other two are well entrenched and here to stay.
 
Be economically well & you will automatically eradicate those narrow-minded Jihadists from your country in particular & Islamic world in general. See the Saudis no revolt their because the women are cladded in gold & men in silver & guess what both have their stomach filled to max limit...
 
^^ Interesting analysis.

I am not sure of the coherence of the "Islamic bloc" though. They have far too much issues within them. Hardly anything unites them other than an ephemeral and nebulous concept of Ummah. The divisions along ethnic and sectarian lines are much more stronger and much more real.

For example, what is common between Persia and Arabs? They have been enemies forever. They looked down on each other and do it now. Persia may even go back to its roots in a few generation and it might just be the starting point for much bigger things to come.

The best way would be to stop dreaming of world domination. But I am pessimistic about that given the track record.
 
You are right. The Muslim world fights amongst itself. As the Christian world once did. But the underlying theme for each faction remains the same. As does the way the Muslim majority comes across to the non-Muslim minority. As does the attitude of the rest of the world, both Christian and Other, towards everything Muslim, regardless of their internal equations. I still feel that the big shake-ups religion-wise have already happened. Each has its own place. The non-Muslim world would not be so bothered were the Muslim world to in-fight within these set boundaries. Its when it boils over that the trouble starts.

The Christian world seems to have reconciled to losing the numbers game eventually. But they will make damn sure that in a world order of coalition politics, their side continues to hold the bigger gun. The real problem with the Muslim world today in such a scenario then is that they are backing themselves into a dead-end corner where they would be forced to fight it out alone, with no hope of other coalition partners, as the rest of the world proceeds to split them into warring fragments incapable of serious damage. The Christian way is so much better that I am surprised that no one in the Muslim world has recognized it yet.
 
^^ I think that if we have to think in terms of clash of civilization, the Western world (also the Christian world) had a lot more in common than the "Islamic world".

The world is coalescing more along ethnic lines than religious lines.

I don't see Iran and Arabs ever coming together in a common front for example. At least for any long term sustainable common goal.

Same thing holds true for Muslims in South East Asia, Central Asia, Maghrab. The differences are far more than commonality.
 
No I didn't. I don't agree with that point of view. For instance look at what madrassas have done in Pakistan and compare that to the schools being run in Pakistan or even India by Christians.

Christianity is respected for the reforms and the work it has done in the world.

The schools run by Christian missionaries are good because they are privately run. There are also private schools run by Muslims (and I am sure Hindus) which are also very good. It has nothing to do with religion.

People can follow their religion and culture as long as it doesn't conflict with the law of the land. You can't do the same in an Islamic country.

I know this will open the floodgates for some people, but that statement is very country-specific. Christians and Jews in some Muslim countries (Morocco, Malaysia and even Pakistan in the 60s and 70s) were better off than Muslims in Europe. Of course, there are other extremes like Saudi Arabia, etc.

The 'tolerance' in Western countries is directly proportional to their economic climate: when times are tough, immigrants feel the heat.

Thing is almost all of these powerful Western countries are not Christian countries, they are secular. People have positive opinions about Christians because they don't blow up and call for death of people on difference of opinions. People have have positive opinion about Christians cause they are tolerant and they don't force their religion or ways on to you. Go to a Gulf country and you can't even eat in public during Ramadan.

angeldust has a far better understanding of this matter. I suggest you read his/her posts. The secular Christian countries still have a lot of historical baggage on their minds and their laws and foreign policies are very much influenced by these prejudices. It's just that they are a million times more sophisticated than the Muslims about how to sugar coat everything.

The end result is the same: the people they don't like either end up dying or get locked up.
 
Comparing Xtianity with Islam or for that matter any religion with Islam is a fallacy that a lot of people fall into...

Islam is not a religion as far as the definition of religion goes... It is ALSO a political ideology... It has laws for the whole range of worldly affairs be it ruling, judiciary, military, economics, social system, education, health care, foreign affairs...

There is a problem when sell out Mullahs take money and teach wrong ideas and concepts to ignorant population... the blessing for Muslims is that the sources of law are available and translated into multiple languages... and those with a zest for research can get to the bottom of all issues that arise in a discourse of Islam... This is particularly so since the boom of information and the beginning of the information age/internet etc... So the cunning and evil Mullah is no longer in force... Facebook has found a use my friends!!!!

Islam does not need to reform... as Truth Teller said in his comment, if someone has a problem with that then tough... Muslims should be careful when approaching discussions of this sort because in the West there is an active and aggressive movement which seeks to confuse Muslims about Islam, it demands reformation of Islamic concepts and talks about muscular secularism and liberalism... In reality these people will not stop until Muslims completely abandon the Quran and Sunnah and this we already know is never going to happen... so these enemies are already speaking from a position of weakness... Our issue is nt that Islam is not understood properly by anyone... Our issue is that our governments are puppets of the West who have Muslim names with hearts of devils... they have destroyed our land from Morocco to Indonesia... they have exploited its resources for their own good and for the good of their masters and not good for the people of our land... The time is coming fast that Muslims turn the tables on these people and start looking after the affairs of their own people... care for their own people and improve the society of the Muslim lands... concepts such as secularism, democracy, capitalism are already under intense fire and pressure on their home grounds as they are failing to deliver... It is now a prime time for Islam to make a re entry into the situation... Their only tactic against this is to create fear and mistrust among people including both Muslims and non Muslims... they may succeed a little but ultimately they ll fail... specially when people see a living example of the justice of Islam in application (not just in the books)...
 
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