'Islamic' Republic of Pakistan

[ajpirzada]

Very compelling indeed.

How do you feel about secularism...a personal opinion, all these sentiments apart.

i have never lived in a secular country so i might not be the best person to answer this question. its been only 2 yrs since i have come to uk for my studies. however from what i seen in news and what i have experianced in my last two yrs, i think secular socities are more materialistic or become materialistic at a much faster rate while they develop.
i never thought about this much coz i never saw islam creatin problems for me rather it helped me in my decision making. also muslims take islam as a way of life so this question gets quite tricky if u have never thought about this before.

 

[niaz]

Hon Kansu asked me to tell him about Madrassahs in Pakistan and about Lal Masjid. This and the following posts are in reply. Since mine is obviously a very biased view, I am inviting dissenting members to post their comments so that our Tukish brother can have a balance account.

Lal Masjid.

Lal Masjid is located in Sector G-6, central Islamabad. Its founder Maulvi Abdullah was a friend of Gen Zia ul Haq, who allotted a plot of land to Abdullah for he building of mosque. Colour of its wall was red hence the name Red Mosque. The mosque helped in recruitment of the Mujahids for fighting against USSR in Afghanistan. And had close links with terrorist organization such as Jaish Mohammed. Maulvi Abdullah was assassinated inside the mosque in 1998 and his sons Abdul Aziz and Abdul Rashid took over the mosque. Over the years many adjacent plots allocated to other organizations such as Book Foundation were appropriated by the mosque administration. They built a female Madrassah Jamia Hafsa on the usurped land. A male madrassah was also close by. Most of the students were from outside Islamabad, mainly from the NWFP.

Police tried to enter the Mosque in July 2005, when Shahzad Tanweer one the 7/7 bombers was found to have connection with Lal Masjid. The police were met by baton wielding females and withdrew.

Students from Jamia Hafsa were becoming bolder every day. There were cases of baton (Lathi) carrying burqa clad students closing down video shops and trying to enforce the Sharia. It was alleged the holy prophet (PBUH) had appeared to Maulvi Abdul Aziz in a dream and asked him to fight for the imposition of Sharia law in Pakistan.

When CDA started a campaign to demolished mosque constructed on the usurped gov't land. Students occupied a neighboring Children’s library building and refused to vacate unless govt't accepted their demands which included rebuilding of all the demolished mosques (about 30) and enforce Sharia. Maulvi Abdul Aziz threatened that they had a force of hundreds of suicide bombers who would be unleashed if GOP did not accept their terms.

Government dilly dallied and would not use force. Things came to a head when students of kidnapped policemen and three Chinese women accusing them of being prostitutes. It is said that a telephone from President of China finally moved Musharraf to action.
On July 3, 2007, a gun battle erupted between the students of Lal Masjid and Pakistani security forces when Jamia Hafsa students stole radio sets and weapons from the Pakistan Rangers deployed in a nearby post. The same day about 150 Lal Masjid students attacked the Ministry of Environment office building, setting fire and setting many vehicles ablaze. The fighting continued and left nine people dead and about 150 injured. Among the dead were four students of the mosque, a TV news channel cameraman, a businessman and a pedestrian. Within minutes, security forces closed off the area and emergency was declared in the capital's hospitals. Sporadic clashes continued as Pakistan Army troops were deployed.
The next day, authorities announced an indefinite curfew in the area surrounding the mosque in Sector G-6 of Islamabad.

A command was issued to shoot anyone coming out of the mosque with weapons. The government offered those inside the mosque who exited unarmed Rs. 5,000 (about USD 83 or GBP 41), and free education. Women inside the mosque were also offered safe passage to their homes. The deadline was regularly extended as mosque leaders employed a strategy of allowing a certain number of students to surrender during the passage of each deadline, requiring security forces to re-negotiate an extension. Government authorities announced the first deadline for students and persons present inside the Lal Masjid to surrender unconditionally by 1530 Pakistan Standard Time (PST), and it was thereafter extended to 1600, 1800, 1930 and 2130. The government said that as many as 600 armed militants are still hold up inside the mosque.
Before dawn on July 5, Pakistani troops set off a series of explosions around the mosque. While gunfire was exchanged throughout the day, the clashes apparently stopped. Extension of deadlines continued on July 5 with the strategy for the government to evacuate the mosque and Jamia Hafsa before the final operation took place. Interior Minister announced at a press conference that it was believed that 300–400 students remained in the mosque, 50–60 of whom were militants. Lal Masjid inmates fought PA Commandos to standstill for 5 days!
Pakistan media gave a very pro Lal Masjid coverage and suicide bombings increased tenfold immediately following the Lal Masjid operation.

 

[niaz]

Madarassahs in Pakistan.


Madrassah have always been in the subcontinent. This was the only source of providing education before the start of modern education system in the 19th century.

IMO the start of explosion in the madarssah system started in the Bhutto era when an Islamic University was incorporated in the heretofore little known town of Bahawalpur in 1975 with Saudi grant. Since then, Southern Punjab, famous for the Saints of both the Nasqhband and Suharwardia Tariqats, has been a hot bed of sectarian conflict. Head quarters of banned terrorist organizations just as Jaish Mohammed are located at Ahmadpur East. Sepah Sehaba Pakistan, another sectarian and terrorist organisation has also substantial following in this area. It is said that Daniel Pearl was murdered by Jaish Mohammed followers.


There were many reasons for the growth of madarassahs, especially in the Southern Punjab. One of the reasons is no doubt deeply embedded poverty in the rural areas. This does not obviously hold true in case of relatively prosperous areas such as Thokar Niaz Beg Lahore, Islamabad and Karachi. In 1947 there were fewer than 150 madrassahs now the same are estimated to be near 50,000!

Most of the growth took place during the height of the Afghan war and the Zia era (1980-1985). CIA funding was partially channelled for this purpose as many of these madrassahs were providing recruit for the anti USSR jihad in Afghanistan. Administrative machinery was partial towards religious leaders belonging to militant Deobandi groups as these leaders belonged to groups supported by the ISI and the West led by United States. This accordingly resulted in a spate of sectarian violence in Punjab. I for one cannot forgive Zia and Hamid Gul for the spread of this cancer in our society and hope that they rot in hell.

It is also reported that madrassahs belonging to Deobandi and Shia
Sects have been the ones primarily involved in the sectarian violence,
Traditionally Deobandi and Shia sects have in conflict for a long time, but now even students belonging to the Brelvi Madaaris that were traditionally non-controversial institutions, have started showing violent and sectarian tendencies. It is seen that in many instances this is a response to the aggressive attitude of Deobandi institutions.

It would be wrong to generalize that all of the madarassahs are hot bed of extremism. However, a study conducted in 2002 found that syllabus taught in the madrassahs is highly factional which stifles creativity and is an impediment to modern knowledge. Therefore majority of the students graduating out of the maddarsahs are sectarian, political and religious bigots. A lot of madaaris curriculum is based upon ‘Nizamia’ school established in Baghdad 1000 years ago and cover only the religious subjects such as Quran, Hadith and Islamic jurisprudence.

Madarassah no doubt provide a useful social welfare service. Education as well as boarding and lodging is free. Hence the families who lack the resources to educate their children make most use of this system. It therefore follows that extremist and sectarian groups and religious parties have more following in areas the local political power was with Shia landed gentry.

The madrassahs in Islamabad, Lahore and Karachi are mostly located in urban areas. In Islamabad in particular there are hardly any local students studying in madrassahs, they are mostly from Nothern areas, Northern districts of NWFP. This creates a strange detached relationship
of these institutions and students towards local communities. Since there is no sense of belonging or obligation towards the community,
It has resulted in uncontrolled violence and riots on couple of occasions when
the religious groups decided to bring the Islamabad madrassah students on the
streets.

Funding to Madaris has always been a major focus of attention. According to the info available me, there are three main sources of funding:

Sadiqa and Khairat. Many wealthy locals specially the traders, thru genuine motivation or thru a desire to atone their sins thru generosity to religious institutions provide a large part of the funding.

Contribution from the Gulf countries including Saudi philanthropists for Salafin and Deobandi schools and Shia Iran for the Jaafri schools.

Government Zakat funds.

Every madrassah is invariably attached or affiliated to a religious political party. In my view there is an army thousands of Madrassah students as their ardent supporters extremely indoctrinated, and readily available rather always at beck and call. Nearly all the major demonstrations organized by the MMA or JI, the major component of rallies are madrassah students.

I think the main problem is that this system is producing hundreds of thousands of young men, who even after spending years in the madarassah system cannot perform any constructive work in the society at large. Therefore they invariably end up as terrorists.

 

[s90]

Pakistan was founded as Dominion of Pakistan,and tht kalma slogan wasnt of Jinnahs party

Jinnah clearly told the constitution making body that...if u examine the speech u will get the msg

You are free; you are free to go to your temples. You are free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any region or caste or creed --that has nothing to do with the business of the State. As you know, history shows that in England conditions, some time ago, were much worse than those prevailing in India today. The Roman Catholics and the Protestants persecuted each other. Even now there are some States in existence where there are discriminations made and bars imposed against a particular class. Thank God, we are not starting in those days. We are starting in the days when there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another. We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State. The people of England in course of time had to face the realities of the situation and had to discharge the responsibilities and burdens placed upon them by the government of their country and they went through that fire step by step. Today, you might say with justice that Roman Catholics and Protestants do not exist; what exists now is that every man is a citizen, an equal citizen of Great Britain and they are all members of the Nation.

Now, I think we should keep that in front of us as our ideal and you will find that in course of time Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual but in the political sense as citizens of the state.

 

[zombie]

For someone who is an atheist it is the same.

This is trying to clutch at straws. Some of the founders were atheists and some of the US presidents too. There is little or no active assault against the atheists and christians found it reasonable to share space with other religions too. One can nitpick here and there like everywhere but seen in the overall context there is equality.

Your showing one or two wordings here and there in comparing the secular mindset of the founders and americans in general to a officially theocratic state like Pakistan is self-defeating and like comparing cancer to a common cold. Both are after all illnesses.You might or might not have to take medicine for one as it is autocorrecting but treating the other is generally in the interests of the patient.

 

[ajpirzada]

Pakistan was founded as Dominion of Pakistan,and tht kalma slogan wasnt of Jinnahs party

Jinnah clearly told the constitution making body that...if u examine the speech u will get the msg

so wat makes u think that wat jinnah said is not wat islam says.

you must have read this verse from Quran:
'there is no compulsion in religion'
meaning everyone can practice their religion with equal freedom
pakistan being an islamic country only makes sure that none of the muslims living in pak does any harm to anyone elses religion......

 

[s90]

so wat makes u think that wat jinnah said is not wat islam says.

you must have read this verse from Quran:
'there is no compulsion in religion'
meaning everyone can practice their religion with equal freedom
pakistan being an islamic country only makes sure that none of the muslims living in pak does any harm to anyone elses religion......

Practically what ur saying dont work

 

[ajpirzada]

Practically what ur saying dont work

that is bec we are not gud muslims anymore......
i can say a lot gud things but when it comes to me doin them, i hardly do any. thats the problem with most of us so called muslims

 

[s90]

that is bec we are not gud muslims anymore......
i can say a lot gud things but when it comes to me doin them, i hardly do any. thats the problem with most of us so called muslims

ur telling me the sufi concept...normal muslims are fanatics and dont give space to liberal ppll unfortunately

 

[Destructlord]

My Turk brother what was the secularism benifits for Turkey? Im asking you now because you're suggesting it for Pakistan? Once mighty Ottomon Empire which almost conquered Europe is now... (Please excuse my expression). is now begging EU to let the Turkey become a part of the European Union! What is the position of Europe to approve Turkey or not?!! specially with all of its history and conquests?

Sarkozy: No, No we dont want a neighbour of Iraq to become part of the Europe!!!
They're interfering with the Turkey internal affairs! about Cyprus and... so on.

 

[Destructlord]

Please delete the post.

 

[ajpirzada]

ur telling me the sufi concept...normal muslims are fanatics and dont give space to liberal ppll unfortunately

can u explain that please....
how did u conclude that????

 

[niaz]

Just to prove my point as to why despite not favouring "seculrism" I am against the imposition of Sharia Law in Pakistan. I quote an editorial comment published in the News of today

Quote

Barbarians rule?



Tuesday, February 10, 2009
The publication in this newspaper last Sunday of the decapitated body of a man suspended upside down with his severed head rammed between his thighs is proof-positive if it were ever needed of the appalling barbarism that threatens to envelop us all. Further evidence of the depravity of those who are fighting to establish a Pakistani caliphate is provided by the seven-minute video of the beheading of Piotr Stancza who was kidnapped by the Taliban last September. The video includes a statement by the Taliban which says that other foreign nationals that they are holding – including a Chinese man – would meet the same fate if the Pakistani government did not accede to their demands. The tape goes on to try and do a deal for the release of the man's body, along with a refusal to do so if the deal – 'free our men or else' being the substance of it – does not materialize. What sort of animal uses dead bodies as bargaining chips? The Taliban animal, seemingly. Further revelations include the unsurprising news that the same group that had killed Piotr Stancza had attacked the Mianwali checkpost and a procession of Shia mourners in DG Khan. What busy butchers these boys are.

The threat to other foreign nationals must have sent a chill through every foreign embassy and consulate in the country. It will have sent fear into the hearts and heads of those who come from far-off lands as volunteer doctors, nurses, teachers and engineers and is a powerful advertisement for just how heedless of normative values – and powerful – these Taliban groups have become. They are beyond the law or the writ of the state and now murder at will our guests, our friends and supporters, and unless stopped in their tracks, and soon, will establish their own writ across this scarred and mangled land. The murder of Piotr Stancza may turn out to be the watershed, the point at which nations which have hitherto been generous in their support to us may begin to review their commitment. The point at which foreign firms may decide that it really is no longer worth the risk of sending their employees here. The point at which international NGOs and aid agencies say that enough is enough and the security environment has deteriorated to the point at which humanitarian work is no longer possible. The point, and we are perilously close to it, at which it may be said that the extremists have won. We are not at that point yet, but it is going to take decisive action to ensure we never reach it.


UnQuote.

Barbarians rule?

This reinforces my view that current generation of so called Islamists that carry out such deeds are actually followers of Satan. With every passing day their misdeeds are turning the international polity against the Muslims.

What has happened to the so called followers of Islam that they have changed a religion which means "peace" into a most cruel dogma in practice. Do the proponents of Sharai law in Pakistan want rest of Pakistan' society to turn in to butchers as demonstrated by the Taliban?

 

[salman nedian]

Hi All, I just wanted to know what everybody thinks of the word "islamic" in the official name of pakistan. Do you think that this word should be removed or kept? Keep in mind that Jinnah himself did not want pakistan to be a theocratic state, he wanted it to be secular in nature. And also keep in mind that many other muslim countries do not have "islamic" names. For example, Saudi Arabia, It is "arabia" ruled by the saud royal family. It is NOT that "islamic" kingdom of saudi arabia. Do you think pakistanis would be angry if it was removed? Thanks to all, just want to know what people think about this.

We are not ashamed of our identity; Islam is our identity and baseline of our country. With 98% Muslims we have full right to have our country’s name based on our religion. Islam itself prevents any sort of injustice and minorities are free to live their lives according to their beliefs.

 

[Energon]

there are many reasons. first majority of pakistanis want to keep their islamic identity with them. its to do with our feelings. second there is not reason for a secular pakistan to exist when it was only created in the name of religion. so u r basicaly talkin about changin the foundations of pakistan. third islam is wat keeps pakistanis united. there is no other reason for sindhis balochis pashtuns punjabis baltistanis kashmiris etc etc to live under one roof when their culture and traditions are totally different. fourth u make pakistan secular and system will start collapsing. none of our laws will be valid anymore and we will have to come up with a new constitution which will not be possible. most of the muslims will come out on street when they ll see shops sellin alchohol and night clubs everywhere coz that is not what they made pakistan for.
it will always be Islamic Republic of Pakistan. its to do with our belief which i cant explain and many outsiders wont even understand.

History has shown time and time again that Islam has NOT sufficed as a binding factor for Pakistanis despite multiple attempts to fashion in to that effect. If anything, attempts to glorify Islam through national policies for the sake of nationhood has resulted in a colossal disaster.

The Indian Subcontinent has always been an extremely diverse place and it is logistically impossible to really homogenize it at this point. Which is why the most sensible way forward is to embrace the diversity and use it to the nation's advantage. It certainly won't be easy, or quick; but given enough time and good decision making, it will enable the state to stabilize itself from within, become more progressive and consequently more prosperous.