Is Turkey the role model?

[ovarel]

Good, and why Islamic Ottoman empire failed to industrialize itself, unlike secular European states and Japan?

because of its socio-economic structure.there was the "sipahi system" in ottomans which had benefited them so much for centuries.but after centuries it had started to prevent capitalism in agriculture to take route.if there is no agrarian capitalism,then you cant achieve industrialization.countries in that time didnt say "hey lets industralize ourselves".it was a process that came naturally.and it has nothing to do with secularism as i mentioned before.

 

[ARSENAL6]

Because 800 years ago other states were religious as well. But when Europe became secular Ottoman Empire began heavily lag behind.

Let me say this on my behalf .....At least I don't make bigotry comments.

Israel is pretty secular state. I wish it was 100% secular. I am doing my best by voting for parties with secular anti religious agenda.

Good then if Israel becomes Secular then The Zionist will have to leave that part of the region
SInce the Idea of putting Jews in Palistine was a religious idea.

 

[500]

because of its socio-economic structure.

Religious states have flawed socio-economic structure, thats why they all fail with no exception.

Good then if Israel becomes Secular then The Zionist will have to leave that part of the region
SInce the Idea of putting Jews in Palistine was a religious idea.

No it was not. Most of Zionists who built Israel were secular and even atheists. For me Bible is sacred book not because its written by some supernatural guy on cloud, but because it represents the history and tradition of my nation.

 

[ARSENAL6]

Religious states have flawed socio-economic structure, thats why they all fail with no exception.


No it was not. Most of Zionists who built Israel were secular and even atheists. For me Bible is sacred book not because its written by some supernatural guy on cloud, but because it represents the history and tradition of my nation.

LOL ! and that Tradition is based upon ?
The fact that the Jews were to retrun to the home land and why was it theire homeland ?
Its because thats where they originated from as stated in Tora and Bible.

But like I said If you don't believe it as it shows then there is no need to saty in Israel
full stop.

 

[ovarel]

Religious states have flawed socio-economic structure, thats why they all fail with no exception.

well,if this is what you understand from political sociology then i cant help you..

dont disgrace yourself here by talking without knowledge.

 

[silko]

I can't help but feel that your understanding of Atatürk is completely wrong. i am not a kemalist, and you can bet everything you have on that the soldiers serving the country are fighting for a turkey and not ataturk, if you still think otherwise then you need to come up with something tangible. You say that you are fighting for turkiye, how ? You are living in norway just like I m living in denmark so our contribution to turkiye is aproximtely 0.

Most people seem to think that you can either be secular or religious and that you can' be both at the same time. I think that's quite sad, and narrowminded. What are the muslims living in the western world then... ?

i think i writed a little to fast, WHEN i join the turkish armed forces. what i mean about the soldiers is, i found a video in youtube (can't remember the name of it) where teens got drunk with purpose and telled everyone in the street that they were the soldiers of ataturk, and that ataturk was for drinking themself full or something.

but as i said: i dont hate him, but i dont love him either, i've just not been teached to love him!

found it

 

[500]

LOL ! and that Tradition is based upon ?

Every nation has its history and tradition. Jewish history and tradition is in Bible (Torah).

The fact that the Jews were to retrun to the home land and why was it theire homeland ?

Because Jews became a nation in this land and Jews had two contries in this land.

well,if this is what you understand from political sociology then i cant help you..

I understand much more than you. Also I studied well math in school and uni and I can calculate the odds that all prosper states are secular and all religious are failed is just a coinsidence.

 

[ovarel]

I understand much more than you. Also I studied well math in school and uni and I can calculate the odds that all prosper states are secular and all religious are failed is just a coinsidence.

you are hilarious

im gonna leave your utter ignorance in peace.seems like you are happy with superficial thinkings,anyway.im out

 

[Watani]

I don't know much about Turkish government, but Turkish people truly are great people to have around you and there is so much one can learn from them. One example is despite of being in foreign countries for decades, I yet have to meet a Turkish person who cannot speak Turkish fluently, or is not very well informed about Turkish history. I haven't met any Turkish person who showed a truly bitter attitude to other nations, they rather speak good about the nations they like or get along with. I also think they got a good balance of Islam and Western lifestyle and not many people can keep up with BOTH cultures at the same time. Wishing them all the best and more prosperity in the future!

 

[Myth_buster_1]

You belong to the branch of islam who's waiting for a Mahdi, don't you, one of those who expect another great era of Islam to occur. The type who're willing to wait and let someone else do the hard work and then brag about it as if you were part of the great machination...

Khalifa... yeah the idea is good, except that not a single f***ing soul after Hz. Muhammed is worthy of that title, so you keep waiting.

Certainly secular muslims will not do a single thing for Islam since they have partially divorced from the religion and are trying to copy and fallow their western masters and neither I expect anything good from fascists Muslims who cause all sort of trouble in the name of Islam.
When these two Branches combined, it is exactly what Quran and Hadis warn us about.

“Never will the Jews and the Christians be pleased with you until you follow their ways of life. Say: Indeed the Guidance of Allaah, that is the only true guidance. And if you were to follow their false desires after what you have received of the knowledge of Revelation, then you would have neither a guardian, nor any helper against Allaah.” [Sooratul-Baqarah 2:120]

Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "A time will come when the nations (of the world) will surround you from every side, just as diners gather around the main dish. Somebody asked, 'Oh Messenger of Allah, will it be on account of our scarcity at that time?' He said, 'No, but you will be scum, like the scum of flood water. Feebleness will be in your hearts, and fear will be removed from the hearts of your enemies, on account of your love for the world, and your abhorrence of death.'" [Ahmad, Abu Dawud]

 

[Cerian]

Certainly secular muslims will not do a single thing for Islam since they have partially divorced from the religion and are trying to copy and fallow their western masters and neither I expect anything good from fascists Muslims who cause all sort of trouble in the name of Islam.
When these two Branches combined, it is exactly what Quran and Hadis warn us about.

“Never will the Jews and the Christians be pleased with you until you follow their ways of life. Say: Indeed the Guidance of Allaah, that is the only true guidance. And if you were to follow their false desires after what you have received of the knowledge of Revelation, then you would have neither a guardian, nor any helper against Allaah.” [Sooratul-Baqarah 2:120]

Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "A time will come when the nations (of the world) will surround you from every side, just as diners gather around the main dish. Somebody asked, 'Oh Messenger of Allah, will it be on account of our scarcity at that time?' He said, 'No, but you will be scum, like the scum of flood water. Feebleness will be in your hearts, and fear will be removed from the hearts of your enemies, on account of your love for the world, and your abhorrence of death.'" [Ahmad, Abu Dawud]

You still don't give any single evidence regarding to living in harmony with other beliefs and ideas. All you argue is how Muslims should live their lives but not how should they live with others. Give me an example of one single country whose population is dominated by Muslim faith and have tolerance to differences. Isn't common good and respect are values of Islam? So why do you care if it's done in under an umbrella of secular ideology or in a religious setting? As long as you practice your religiosity in a free environment and other distinct religious people does theirs, does the way to achieve is more important than the same end?

 

[Nutuk]

I guess many here will disagree with me but secularism (keeping state and religious matters apart) is a must if one wants to avoid a constant 'religious civil war' in a country. This doesn't count only for Muslims but Christians as well (unless you have only one branch of the faith in that country). For countries where you have a single religion and single branch, state and religion could work fine. But in countries like Turkey where you have Sunni's and Alevi's a non separation of religion and state can lead to persucation (like in the Ottoman times) of the religious branche that is in minority.

Practically it doesn't matter whether you have civil war or religious war in a country, both lead to separations and can stop a country from moving ahead. So IMHO secularization in Turkey was a must and maybe one of the main reasons why Turkey is ahead of most other Muslim countries.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

You still don't give any single evidence regarding to living in harmony with other beliefs and ideas. All you argue is how Muslims should live their lives but not how should they live with others. Give me an example of one single country whose population is dominated by Muslim faith and have tolerance to differences. Isn't common good and respect are values of Islam? So why do you care if it's done in under an umbrella of secular ideology or in a religious setting? As long as you practice your religiosity in a free environment and other distinct religious people does theirs, does the way to achieve is more important than the same end?

Why should i provide any evidence regarding living in harmony with other beliefs and ideas when thats not even the topic? Go read Quran and understand what is written their because you would get answer to your question. This is exactly what I am talking about. Secular and extremism have prevented Muslims from practicing Islam to its true potential. Islam is not just about praying 5 times a day and going to mosque back and forth. Secularism eliminates one of the most essential element of Islam which is the authority of the sate that is with Allah and not with man made system which was designed by the Freemasons, Illuminati, Zionists etc to control the world population. The verse of quran and the hadis that i quoted perfectly describe the current Muslims state that they are in today and all I see in response here is ignorance.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

I guess many here will disagree with me but secularism (keeping state and religious matters apart) is a must if one wants to avoid a constant 'religious civil war' in a country. This doesn't count only for Muslims but Christians as well (unless you have only one branch of the faith in that country). For countries where you have a single religion and single branch, state and religion could work fine. But in countries like Turkey where you have Sunni's and Alevi's a non separation of religion and state can lead to persucation (like in the Ottoman times) of the religious branche that is in minority.

Practically it doesn't matter whether you have civil war or religious war in a country, both lead to separations and can stop a country from moving ahead. So IMHO secularization in Turkey was a must and maybe one of the main reasons why Turkey is ahead of most other Muslim countries.

So stripping away most essential elements in Islam is a must for progress?

 

[Nutuk]

So stripping away most essential elements in Islam is a must for progress?

Stripping away what? Having a secular political system doesn't strip away religion, where do you gather such extreme views from? Turkey is the Muslim country that has more mosques than any other Muslim country on earth (including Iran which is a theocracy) and religion is more open and free than anywhere else in the Muslim world. With the secular political system we do not have rivaling religious branches blowing up eachothers mosques, is that a bad thing? We keep religion out of politics, which is in principal very good since politicians lie for 90% of what they say, imagine religion was made a tool for all the lies the politicians are producing and poluting this way the religion.