Is Obama's drone doctrine counter-productive?

[swathi]

Drone campaign by CIA and JSOC is sucessful, A number of High Value Targets have been killed. In my opinion if Pakistan Starts an offensive in North Waziristan Offenisve and If they target (Al-Qaeda and Haqqani Network). The United States should stop its drone campaign.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Hmm. Keeps us safe and has kept us safe is an undenial fact. That he chooses themselves bore from the fact his very first strike under his administration had a high casualty count and he did not like that.

Now there is some truth that these attacks helps recruitment but it is a balance that needs to be struck. 911 recruitment was not hurt because the US had no boots on the ground or drones in the sky I.e. jihadist will still keep attacking us regardless of drone or nodrone.

You'd wish your govt kept you safe like the Americans when you leave the propaganda of anti American hysteria behind...

Now for some candid thoughts and talk: comments on the Internet against drone strikes means jack , honestly. Stop funding, supporting terrorist like haquini network . Stop being so quiet about the radicals among y'all and we wil draw down. We don't care about your umma and whatever agenda you have for your women... Just don't come trying to kill our civilians or citizens. Finally when you insist to come live among us, respect out laws and keep your darn religious beliefs within the 4 walls of your house. That goes of all you wanna turn us into a sharia law country aspirational radicals. I mean really what's with that crap.

This doesn't sound right somehow.

Terrorists have to be killed; terrorism had to be wiped out, by whatever use of force that is required.

There is no doubt about that.

Where the whole thing seems immoral is when the methods used are equivalent to state-sanctioned murder, carried out by the organs of the state.

Is this what you want? Decisions taken by self-appointed groups on whom to kill? Decisions taken on the basis of evidence that is found sufficient or insufficient depending on individual thought processes?

Just to work things out, what if tomorrow the President decides that for the safety of US troops, nobody is to be left alive in a 20 KM cordon sanitaire, a belt parallel to the Durand Line? How will the decision implementation differ from today's drone policy?

 

[swathi]

Sovereignty: if drone attacks are violation of Pakistan Sovereignty, what about foreign militants in North Waziristan, Chechens, Uzbeks, Arabs. who are they? did'nt they violate pakistan sovereignty?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Sovereignty: if drone attacks are violation of Pakistan Sovereignty, what about foreign militants in North Waziristan, Chechens, Uzbeks, Arabs. who are they? did'nt they violate pakistan sovereignty?

I don't think the issue reduces to a simple matter of sovereignty. It's about morality. Is it all right to kill other people's innocent children to try and stop a third set of people from killing your own?

 

[AbhimanyuShrivastav]

This doesn't sound right somehow.

Terrorists have to be killed; terrorism had to be wiped out, by whatever use of force that is required.

There is no doubt about that.

Where the whole thing seems immoral is when the methods used are equivalent to state-sanctioned murder, carried out by the organs of the state.

Is this what you want? Decisions taken by self-appointed groups on whom to kill? Decisions taken on the basis of evidence that is found sufficient or insufficient depending on individual thought processes?

Just to work things out, what if tomorrow the President decides that for the safety of US troops, nobody is to be left alive in a 20 KM cordon sanitaire, a belt parallel to the Durand Line? How will the decision implementation differ from today's drone policy?

Well, killing of any kind leaves a bad taste in the mouth.. But then just like war, one needs to make best of a bad situation. You have knowledge of terrorists in a given area. You know they are going to come after your citizens. The country where these terrorists are based is not willing to move against them. You cant send your ground troops as they will be slaughtered before they reach the terrorist safe havens. The only option left is air attack thru drones. It has its risks of collateral damage, but then with Pakistani terrorists, its down to kill or be killed..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Sovereignty: if drone attacks are violation of Pakistan Sovereignty, what about foreign militants in North Waziristan, Chechens, Uzbeks, Arabs. who are they? did'nt they violate pakistan sovereignty?

Who said the foreign militants have not violated Pakistan's sovereignty and laws through their illegal infiltration and violence?

That said, are you comparing the conduct of the US Government, in conducting unauthorized drone strikes that have caused hundreds (if not thousands) of innocent civilian deaths, equivalent to the actions of the Chechen, Uzbek and Arab terrorists inside Pakistan? If so, I think most Pakistanis would be in agreement with you ...

 

[Hulk]

This doesn't sound right somehow.

Terrorists have to be killed; terrorism had to be wiped out, by whatever use of force that is required.

There is no doubt about that.

Where the whole thing seems immoral is when the methods used are equivalent to state-sanctioned murder, carried out by the organs of the state.

Is this what you want? Decisions taken by self-appointed groups on whom to kill? Decisions taken on the basis of evidence that is found sufficient or insufficient depending on individual thought processes?

Just to work things out, what if tomorrow the President decides that for the safety of US troops, nobody is to be left alive in a 20 KM cordon sanitaire, a belt parallel to the Durand Line? How will the decision implementation differ from today's drone policy?

And how will US wipe out terrorist if the country they are in does not act on them?

 

[AbhimanyuShrivastav]

Who said the foreign militants have not violated Pakistan's sovereignty and laws through their illegal infiltration and violence?

That said, are you comparing the conduct of the US Government, in conducting unauthorized drone strikes that have caused hundreds (if not thousands) of innocent civilian deaths, equivalent to the actions of the Chechen, Uzbek and Arab terrorists inside Pakistan? If so, I think most Pakistanis would be in agreement with you ...

I dont think swathi is saying that..But the fact that the question of sovereignty violation does not arise since pakistan's sovereignty in the said areas doesnt exist anyway..

The collateral damage is a separate discussion.. And while the collateral damage is a reality, what needs to be seen is if there is an alternate way that would result in lower collateral damage than drone attacks..

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

And how will US wipe out terrorist if the country they are in does not act on them?

Do you honestly think the US is going to 'wipe out' all terrorists in NW through an occasional drone strike that kills half a dozen individuals, some/many of whom might be innocent?

In terms of the use of the 'tactic of drone strikes', the US does have an option to bring it in compliance with international law, bring in more accountability and accuracy, but conducting the strikes in jointly with Pakistan with joint US-Pak intelligence. Pakistani courts would (should) then have jurisdiction over Pakistani officials that would jointly authorize these strikes and therefore be liable for any innocent civilians killed in them.

The PAF has made errors as well - please recall the incident in which the PAF bombed a village and killed dozens of innocent people due to faulty intelligence provided by the PA on the ground. The COAS himself visited the village to personally apologize for the incident and compensate the families. That kind of accountability is never going to exist as long as the drone strikes are conducted illegally and unilaterally by the US.

 

[AbhimanyuShrivastav]

Do you honestly think the US is going to 'wipe out' all terrorists in NW through an occasional drone strike that kills half a dozen individuals, some/many of whom might be innocent?

No.. But will keep them unbalanced enough....

In terms of the use of the 'tactic of drone strikes', the US does have an option to bring it in compliance with international law, bring in more accountability and accuracy, but conducting the strikes in jointly with Pakistan with joint US-Pak intelligence. Pakistani courts would (should) then have jurisdiction over Pakistani officials that would jointly authorize these strikes and therefore be liable for any innocent civilians killed in them.

The problem here is the credibility of Pakistan where parts of establishment are suspected of being part of the terrorist organizations...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No.. But will keep them unbalanced enough....

Does not appear to have succeeded over all these years so far, so why expect any different results in the future ...

The problem here is the credibility of Pakistan where parts of establishment are suspected of being part of the terrorist organizations...

Then why ask the same Establishment to launch an operation in North Waziristan?

 

[AbhimanyuShrivastav]

Does not appear to have succeeded over all these years so far, so why expect any different results in the future ...

America's ultimate goal of keeping America safe seems to be pretty well fulfilled...

Then why ask the same Establishment to launch an operation in North Waziristan?

To remove that suspicion.. Where Pakistan has failed spectacularly...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

America's ultimate goal of keeping America safe seems to be pretty well fulfilled...

Through cooperation with Pakistan, given that Pakistan has, per US officials themselves, neutralized more AQ members than any other country - KSM and Libbi some of the most high profile leaders among them.

The drones primarily target and kill Taliban foot soldiers, insurgents looking to target US troops in Afghanistan or Pakistani troops in FATA.

To remove that suspicion.. Where Pakistan has failed spectacularly...

That suspicion can be better removed through cooperation in conducting joint drone strikes - Pakistani and US operators together, and Pakistani and US intelligence officials together.

 

[AbhimanyuShrivastav]

Through cooperation with Pakistan, given that Pakistan has, per US officials themselves, neutralized more AQ members than any other country - KSM and Libbi some of the most high profile leaders among them.

The drones primarily target and kill Taliban foot soldiers, insurgents looking to target US troops in Afghanistan or Pakistani troops in FATA.

Americans do not believe so.. Just like ISI keeps dropping comments about how their intel led to OBL while CIA keeps rejecting the same. Do understand that Pakistan may talk all she wants about how it has noble intentions, but unless the other side believes the same, it has no value. And in this case, Pakistan really has zero trust of the western world..Personally I dont believe that trust is even deserved..But then that's just me...

That suspicion can be better removed through cooperation in conducting joint drone strikes - Pakistani and US operators together, and Pakistani and US intelligence officials together.

The suspect can not tell the other side on how to remove the suspicion. Its the suspecting side which decides what will put their suspicions to rest.. And Pakistan hasnt been able to deliver on that..

 

[illusion8]

Through cooperation with Pakistan, given that Pakistan has, per US officials themselves, neutralized more AQ members than any other country - KSM and Libbi some of the most high profile leaders among them.

The drones primarily target and kill Taliban foot soldiers, insurgents looking to target US troops in Afghanistan or Pakistani troops in FATA.

That suspicion can be better removed through cooperation in conducting joint drone strikes - Pakistani and US operators together, and Pakistani and US intelligence officials together.

They were doing that weren't they? I think after the OBL and Salala incident Pk refused intelligence inputs to the CIA plus closed down the base in Balochistan from where the drones operated as well. The CIA also complained that Pakistani intelligence used to inform the targets of the drone strike before the attack wasn't it?