Is Obama's drone doctrine counter-productive?

[Joe Shearer]

@AbhimanyuSrivastava

I read your note with empathy. Let us agree to disagree.
P. S.: by any chance, were you referring to me as the 'old' master? Please let me know so that I ca start hunting down your IP address, as a preliminary to taking harsh, retributive measures.

 

[AbhimanyuShrivastav]

@AbhimanyuSrivastava

I read your note with empathy. Let us agree to disagree.
P. S.: by any chance, were you referring to me as the 'old' master? Please let me know so that I ca start hunting down your IP address, as a preliminary to taking harsh, retributive measures.

Old not in age, but in wise

and if I had read your subsequent note about Pakistani establishment, I would have probably not even responded to your earlier note, since you penned down my feelings better than I did in my response (re-reference to the title of old master)..

 

[Developereo]

Perhaps more than any other country, public opinion matters in US

I agree. That's exactly why I advocate making a public list of all the drone victims and to promote the list over the internet, traditional media, etc. What matters is not just US public opinion, but non-Pakistani public opinion in general.

The whole idea is to smash the euphemism 'collateral damage' and put human faces (with their life story) on to the murderous rampage.

Is it possible to have a sticky thread listing the names of people killed in drone strikes, and separate them into known militants, known civilians, and unknowns?

The categorization of militants/civilians would have to be absolutely beyond reproach because any mistakes would be capitalized upon by the detractors to discredit the whole listing.

 

[vsdoc]

I agree. That's exactly why I advocated making a public list of all the drone victims and to promote the list over the internet, traditional media, etc.

The whole idea is to smash the euphemism 'collateral damage' and put human faces (with their life story) on to the murderous rampage.

Does Vietnam ring a bell?

That was a full fledged occupation and war.

And it spanned an entire generation of Americans.

With an entire generation at war with the establishment back home.

These are only faceless drones. And please realize the Viets had a LOT more goodwill barter points than what's in your collective checking account globally today.

While you are at it, has the thought of pasting such photo lists on the wall of your GHQ crossed your mind?

 

[Developereo]

Does Vietnam ring a bell?

Certainly does. Do YOU know what turned the tide in Vietnam?
The US didn't lose Vietnam for lack of militarily options -- what it lost was public opinion back home.

While you are at it, has the thought of pasting such photo lists on the wall of your GHQ crossed your mind?

The person with their finger on the trigger is sitting in Langley, VA, not Islamabad.

 

[AbhimanyuShrivastav]

I agree. That's exactly why I advocate making a public list of all the drone victims and to promote the list over the internet, traditional media, etc. What matters is not just US public opinion, but non-Pakistani public opinion in general.

The whole idea is to smash the euphemism 'collateral damage' and put human faces (with their life story) on to the murderous rampage.

How about extending it and adding to the list, the names of all civilians killed in Afghanistan and India (may be not) by the terrorists originating from Pakistani soil ?

 

[Developereo]

How about extending it and adding to the list, the names of all civilians killed in Afghanistan and India (may be not) by the terrorists originating from Pakistani soil ?

So you are equating the US military with terrorists?

Just checking!

 

[vsdoc]

Certainly does. Do YOU know what turned the tide in Vietnam?
The US didn't lose Vietnam for lack of militarily options -- what it lost was public opinion back home.

War fatigue. Do you know how long it took and what had become of Vietnam by then?

Is that consoation to you or does it make you afraid?

The person with their finger on the trigger is sitting in Langley, VA, not Islamabad.

That's because the persons with triggers at your end have their fingers somewhere else. You control what you can. Not whine about what you cannot.

I have many American business associates. I can tell you for a fact that there is a LOT of anger against you guys, though most of them are too politically correct to mouth much of it in front of an Indian.

If public opinion does turn, by when it does, its going to be too late for you

Seriously man, what are your leaders and army doing?

Negotiating container rates?!!!!!!!

 

[Developereo]

War fatigue. Do you know how long it took and what had become of Vietnam by then?

Wrong. Look up the My Lai massacre and media coverage of it. It was a watershed event that turned US public opinion against the war.

Is that consoation to you or does it make you afraid?

Neither. It is an appreciation of the power of the media and public relations.

The US administration has learned its lessons on media management since Vietnam, and I am not saying it will be easy, but it is something specific Pakistan can do to challenge the American narrative.

Pakistan sure can't fight the US militarily.

You control what you can. Not whine about what you cannot.

Nobody's whining. We are specifically highlighting extrajudicial murders by the US administration and I suggest we start talking about the the names of actual victims instead of abstract concepts like 'collateral damage'.

I have many American business associates. I can tell you for a fact that there is a LOT of anger against you guys, though most of them are too politically correct to mouth much of it in front of an Indian.

I am better aware than you might appreciate about the public mood in the US. As I wrote, the US administration has done their PR homework. However, all their PR will not hide the fact of innocent civilians killed by US bombs. That is why I said we have to be VERY careful to make sure civilians are, in fact, civilians and not militants.

If public opinion does turn, by when it does, its going to be too late for you

Early or late, that's the only arena where Pakistan can even begin to challenge the US. The military option is a non-starter.

 

[vsdoc]

I do not agree.

You have to take a measured stand and protect your sovereignty.

Weaker nations than you have done so.

If you shoot their drones down you draw a line.

What are they going to do in retaliation?

Carpet bomb your cities?

 

[Joe Shearer]

So you are equating the US military with terrorists?

Just checking!

I did. FWIW.

 

[Developereo]

I did. FWIW.

I wouldn't go that far, although I agree there are individuals in the US chain of command who should be held accountable for these murders. Realistically, though, we know there is little chance of that happening.

I would prefer to just lay the facts (victims' name and life history) on the table and let Americans know the human cost of what is being done in their name.

 

[AbhimanyuShrivastav]

So you are equating the US military with terrorists?

Just checking!

Nah! just completing the whole circle so that the root cause of Drone attacks is also known to people you want this list to be made visible to.. The idea I thought was to identify & list the civilians who have died as collateral damage in the asymmetric war being waged in the region.. And that list will certainly not be complete without the names of Afghan and Indians killed by Pakistan based terrorists.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I wouldn't go that far, although I agree there are individuals in the US chain of command who should be held accountable for these murders. Realistically, though, we know there is little chance of that happening.

I would prefer to just lay the facts (victims' name and life history) on the table and let Americans know the human cost of what is being done in their name.

To be honest, in functional terms, on the ground, I don't see the difference between terrorists, killing indiscriminately in order to terrorize people into ceasing their opposition, and uniformed people, who kill indiscriminately in order to terrorize people into submission. If they are the same, they are the same.

 

[swathi]

For Obama Administration Counter Terrorism policies, Drones have become a weapon of choice, Drone campaign has eliminated many high value targets. If Pakistan wants to stop drone attacks either they can deal it with their military or diplomatically. The problem is Pakistan doesn't do both.