Is Obama's drone doctrine counter-productive?

[illusion8]

Civilizational drift?

I'd like to hear from the Pakistani's here.

Events over the past decade are screaming "COLONISATION" to me.

Or maybe I'm just suffering from a severe case of late-generational post-colonial syndrome ....

How can it be colonisation? do the US want to take over Pakistan?

 

[vsdoc]

For God's sake guys. Wake up.

Imagine my incredulity when I switch to CNN one day and see Sherry Rehman on a chat about you guys negotiating fr****n transit fees with the Americans for re-opening NATO supplies!

She represents your COUNTRY.

She is lookng for an apology.

While negotiating container fees that are many multiples of what the earlier rate was.

I mean - I could see the incredulous disgust/disdain (combination) in the host's face as well.

What happened to Salala then?

How can it be colonisation? do the US want to take over Pakistan?

Colonisation, neo-colonisation, what is the difference man?

Do the means and methodologies and actual operational details matter when the end effects are the same?

 

[Hulk]

I disagree they are trying to colonize, they are looking for exit.

 

[Windjammer]

Do you think I do not know?

Hell, you should be a spin doctor for MMS & Co.

Not their country and not same as your case.
a) You have home advantage, language, supply and other stuff.
b) You have public support where they are foreigners, way different to work in home country than foreign country.
c) You had the opportunity to control it, you never cared to control some of your land.

You make all the valid points but then like a possessed individual, you merely run in circles.
Say even if 9/11 plot was hatched in the caves of Tora Bora, it may give the rights to Americans to take out the mother ship but does it also justifies them to try and implement their version of democracy in a place which in your own words is alien to them...since they are foreigners, they are bound to be oblivious to the ground realities and indeed it will take none less than an enemy of Pakistan for ignoring the fact that it's the very monster the Americans created is now biting their A$$.
And to introduce you to some realities, Pakistan has it's own argument, for before the Americans gate crashed into Afghanistan, the likes of suicide attacks were virtually unheard of in our part of the world and guess what, it's not the American public baring the brunt of this menace.......so save the banter for your embedded hosts.

 

[AbhimanyuShrivastav]

For God's sake guys. Wake up.

Imagine my incredulity when I switch to CNN one day and see Sherry Rehman on a chat about you guys negotiating fr****n transit fees with the Americans for re-opening NATO supplies!

She represents your COUNTRY.

She is lookng for an apology.

While negotiating container fees that are many multiples of what the earlier rate was.

I mean - I could see the incredulous disgust/disdain (combination) in the host's face as well.

What happened to Salala then?

There is a incident between a woman and Bernard Shaw that Vcheng narrated and fits this situation like a glove..

Maybe if the US stops 200 people roaming in Afghanistan and bomb those sc*m to bits, that would be alot better than doing these strikes in Pakistan.

The common excuse is that they originate from Pakistan. Fair enough. But what about the fact that they stroll through 200 km into Kabul and launch an attack there. Isn't that somebody's responsibility too? To secure their side of the border? Or is that Pakistans fault as well?

People from your country go and attack Americans in Afghanistan, its only and only Pakistan's liability.. When a car hits a pedestrian, you do not blame the pedestrian for not jumping out of the way in time.. You do blame the car driver only..

And when you are liable, you have to pay.. and in this case, Pakistani civilians are having to pay for allowing its govt and army to continue the policy of protecting/shielding terrorists..

 

[Barrack-Obummer]

Why does Pakistan simply not say NO?

Like I said, they are in on it too, just not publicly. Better to let the US do its dirty work while at the same time condemning us publicly to look good. It's a win/win situation for Pakistan.

 

[Jango]

Not on the evidence of this thread and countless others here I have briefly skimmed through.

You are more interested in debating the morals and ethics of it.

Playing the victims.

Going to the UN to protest.

Writing op eds.

Wringing your hands online.

Attending rock show jalsas.

Blaming the Americans.

Always the Americans.

They are the ones killing the people.

But there is a huge uproar against the government as well. The reason you don't notice that is because it has been the norm for the past 3 years, while the US sentiment has rocketed in the past half year or so after Salala.

There is a reason that we are doing an operation in NW and that is lack of resources.

US should try not doing the bomb-talk policy and then come here and bomb civilians. They talk in Qatar, bomb on the border, and it's all hunky dory for you guys. But not for us.

 

[vsdoc]

Like I said, they are in on it too, just not publicly. Better to let the US do its dirty work while at the same time condemning us publicly to look good. It's a win/win situation for Pakistan.

Do not be mistaken.

Pakistan is not letting you do their dirty work.

 

[Jango]

People from your country go and attack Americans in Afghanistan, its only and only Pakistan's liability.. When a car hits a pedestrian, you do not blame the pedestrian for not jumping out of the way in time.. You do blame the car driver only..

And when you are liable, you have to pay.. and in this case, Pakistani civilians are having to pay for allowing its govt and army to continue the policy of protecting/shielding terrorists..

The pedestrian has a spit second, and if the pedestrian crossed the road during rush hour and when the traffic signal was green, you do blame the pedestrian.

They can spot 3 terrorists in a Mosque during Fajr but cannot see 300 people coming to attack a Pakistani post?

Terrorists waling 200 km to Kabul and into the highly secure district, and it's Pakistan's fault?

 

[vsdoc]

They are the ones killing the people.

But there is a huge uproar against the government as well. The reason you don't notice that is because it has been the norm for the past 3 years, while the US sentiment has rocketed in the past half year or so after Salala.

There is a reason that we are doing an operation in NW and that is lack of resources.

US should try not doing the bomb-talk policy and then come here and bomb civilians. They talk in Qatar, bomb on the border, and it's all hunky dory for you guys. But not for us.

Uproar against the government only?

What of those who are meant to protect you and defend your sovereignty?

Are they otherwise busy elsewhere?

Too busy to save Pakistani lives?

 

[Amolthebest]

Terrorists outfit and infrastructures are problems in Pakistan. many wise Pakistani senior members have accepted the fact here in this forum. US drone attacks will be help for the countries who are suffering by terrorism. its a blunt fact.

 

[Jango]

Uproar against the government only?

What of those who are meant to protect you and defend your sovereignty?

Are they otherwise busy elsewhere?

Too busy to save Pakistani lives?

As Asim previously said, now it's a democracy, and the Army takes the convenient step that it is under the government orders!

The Air Chief said in Parliament that you give the order, we shoot down the drones.

let me remind you, it was/is the army that is holding these civilian leaders in check. THe NATO thing, the apology everything was proposed by the Army, the government was ready to open everything in a flash. That's another long story that how Zardari then decided to play his political games with the COAS and everybody else, and ruin a perfect opportunity.

 

[vsdoc]

So who do you think is to blame for not taking on the Americans and showing them where the line is?

Can you afford to show the Americans where the line is?

What happens if they cross it then?

 

[AbhimanyuShrivastav]

Terrorists waling 200 km to Kabul and into the highly secure district, and it's Pakistan's fault?

If they come from Pakistan.. Yes.. Pakistan and only Pakistan's fault.. For a change you guys should stop playing the victim and get your own house in order. Niceties aside, if people from your country go and bomb others, others will try their best to wreck havoc in your country.. And thats what's happening .....

 

[Oldman1]

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

The reason why these estimates about civilian ‘casualties’ in the US and Pakistani media are wrong is that after every attack the terrorists cordon off the area and no one, including the local villagers, is allowed to come even near the targeted place. The militants themselves collect the bodies, burry the dead and then issue the statement that all of them were innocent civilians. This has been part of their propaganda to provide excuses to the pro-Taliban and al Qaeda media persons and political forces in Pakistan to generate public sympathies for the terrorists. The Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan (TTP) or other militants have never admitted to the killing of any important figure of al Qaeda or the TTP. One exception is the killing of Baitullah Mehsud that the TTP reluctantly admitted several days after his death. According to the people of Waziristan, the only civilians who have been killed so far in the drone attacks are women or children of the militants in whose houses/compounds they hold meetings. But that, too, used to happen in the past. Now they don’t hold meetings at places where women and children of the al Qaeda and TTP militants reside. Moreover, in this case too no one is in a position to give even an approximate number of the women and children of the terrorists killed in drone attacks.

The people of Waziristan are suffering a brutal kind of occupation under the Taliban and al Qaeda. It is in this context that they would welcome anyone, Americans, Israelis, Indians or even the devil, to rid them of the Taliban and al Qaeda. Therefore, they welcome the drone attacks. Secondly, the people feel comfortable with the drones because of their precision and targeted strikes. People usually appreciate drone attacks when they compare it with the Pakistan Army’s attacks, which always result in collateral damage. Especially the people of Waziristan have been terrified by the use of long-range artillery and air strikes of the Pakistan Army and Air Force. People complain that not a single TTP or al Qaeda member has been killed so far by the Pakistan Army, whereas a lot of collateral damage has taken place. Thousands of houses have been destroyed and hundreds of innocent civilians have been killed by the Pakistan Army. On the other hand, drone attacks have never targeted the civilian population except, they informed, in one case when the funeral procession of Khwazh Wali, a TTP commander, was hit. In that attack too, many TTP militants were killed including Bilal (the TTP commander of Zangara area) and two Arab members of al Qaeda. But some civilians were also killed. After the attack people got the excuse of not attending the funeral of slain TTP militants or offering them food, which they used to do out of compulsion in order to put themselves in the TTP’s good books. “It (this drone attack) was a blessing in disguise,” several people commented.

I have heard people particularly appreciating the precision of drone strikes. People say that when a drone would hover over the skies, they wouldn’t be disturbed and would carry on their usual business because they would be sure that it does not target the civilians, but the same people would run for shelter when a Pakistani jet would appear in the skies because of its indiscriminate firing. They say that even in the same compound only the exact room — where a high value target (HVT) is present — is targeted. Thus others in the same compound are spared. The people of Waziristan have been complaining why the drones are only restricted to targeting the Arabs. They want the drones to attack the TTP leadership, the Uzbek/Tajik/Turkmen, Punjabi and Pakhtun Taliban. I have heard even religious people of Waziristan cursing the jihad and welcoming even Indian or Israeli support to help them get rid of the TTP and foreign militants. The TTP and foreign militants had made them hostages and occupied their houses by force. The Taliban have publicly killed even the religious scholars in Waziristan.

I have yet to come across a non-TTP resident of Waziristan who supports the Taliban or al Qaeda. Till recently they were terrified by the TTP to the extent that they would not open their mouth to oppose them. But now, having been displaced and out of their reach, some of them speak against them openly and many more than before in private conversations. They express their fear of the intelligence agencies of Pakistan whenever speaking against the Taliban. They see the two as two sides of the same coin.

What we read and hear in the print and electronic media of Pakistan about drone attacks as a violation of Pakistan’s sovereignty or resulting in killing innocent civilians is not true so far as the people of Waziristan are concerned. According to them, al Qaeda and the TTP are dead scared of drone attacks and their leadership spends sleepless nights. This is a cause of pleasure for the tormented people of Waziristan.

Moreover, al Qaeda and the Taliban have done everything to stop the drone attacks by killing hundreds of innocent civilians on the pretext of their being American spies. They thought that by overwhelming the innocent people of Waziristan with terror tactics they would deter any potential informer, but they have failed. On many occasions the Taliban and al Qaeda have killed the alleged US spies in front of crowds of hundreds, even thousands of tribesmen. Interestingly, no one in Pakistan has raised objection to killings of the people of Waziristan on charges of spying for the US. This, the people of Waziristan informed, is a source of torture for them that their fellow Pakistanis condemn the killing of the terrorists but fall into deadly silence over the routine murders of tribesmen accused of spying for the US by the terrorists occupying their land.