Is Dassault Raffale a Wrong choice by India?

[Indo-guy]

Policies may change but IAF or any other forces of India will never give access their mainstay products to any country. You have to know that there are no friends in International politics, only their interest exists.

I agree partly with you ...it was asked in context of Russia being not worried about FGFA since India-US are closer ...

But overall if you read history of world ...thing can change beyond imagination as future unfolds in curious ways ....

I said unlikely...but not impossible ...for same reason . You can't really predict future ...so need to keep options open and hence in diplomacy it is said ..." Never burn your bridges ...you never know if you will need one while travelling back ..when you are forced to retreat "

 

[SRP]

I agree partly with you ...it was asked in context of Russia being not worried about FGFA since India-US are closer ...

But overall if you read history of world ...thing can change beyond imagination as future unfolds in curious ways ....

I said unlikely...but not impossible ...for same reason . You can't really predict future ...so need to keep options open and hence in diplomacy it is said ..." Never burn your bridges ...you never know if you will need one while travelling back ..when you are forced to retreat "

In this world there is no permanent friend only permanent interest exists. Indo-US are not so closer as you think. They never provide us any sort of tot. US weapons comes with lots of string attached. Last time they didn't provide us tot for javelin missiles. Some equipments of c130j and P8Is also. Yes no one can predict future but if you give access your best top notch items to some one like unpredictable US then it is like doing suicide.

 

[sardar1987]

In this world there is no permanent friend only permanent interest exists. Indo-US are not so closer as you think. They never provide us any sort of tot. US weapons comes with lots of string attached. Last time they didn't provide us tot for javelin missiles. Some equipments of c130j and P8Is also. Yes no one can predict future but if you give access your best top notch items to some one like unpredictable US then it is like doing suicide.

Look at chinese in 90's

1)they were producing very inferior weapons

2)everyone laughed at them

But after working on domestic industries for 15 years look at j-20 and see the progress they have made,we just look at short picture and have lost long perspective somehow

Personally i would prefer tejas mk 2 over even rafale if we ramp up indigenous content to include everything except engine(it will take time) why u ask me?

1)in case of war we can ramp up production anytime we need

2)great boost to indigenous sector

3)wayyy cheaper

4)decreasing import bill and current account deficit

 

[SRP]

Look at chinese in 90's

1)they were producing very inferior weapons

2)everyone laughed at them

But after working on domestic industries for 15 years look at j-20 and see the progress they have made,we just look at short picture and have lost long perspective somehow

Personally i would prefer tejas mk 2 over even rafale if we ramp up indigenous content to include everything except engine(it will take time) why u ask me?

1)in case of war we can ramp up production anytime we need

2)great boost to indigenous sector

3)wayyy cheaper

4)decreasing import bill and current account deficit

First prototype of Tejas mk2 is going to be roll out next year. It will take some time to catch up with others.
In case of war with pak we don't have to worry about it. But in case China they have more fighters than us. Thats why we need Rafale like fighters. Tejas is going to be an interceptor but not our mainstay fighter. It will replace the aging fleet of mig21s.

 

[surya kiran]

Man don't brag here.If u make anything indigenously pls post a link here of ur agency's website.

Go to drdo website and u will see the work being done.u can download newsletters and technology papers
do u have any proof from ur side.if yes then post it

If no-then keep quiet

DRDO



Don't talk subjective stuff here,post links or accept u know nothing



The situation has changed mate............we were gonna sign deal 2 years ago with delivery starting 2014.
Now its pushed back to 2014 (most probably) and delivery starting in 2017-18 and cost going up 10 % due to falling rupee

Agreed we can use forex reserves to pay but we can't use forex reserves for everything

Look man. Read up, that's all I am saying. You are comparing a 5th generation fighter with a 4.5 generation fighter. Due you have any idea of a concept of 'running costs'? There is no comparison between the 2. There is a reason why all airforces use multiple types of fighters. There is a reason why a country like the US, uses b-52s instead of B2 or the B1-B. Its called operational costs. So, 2 years is not a big time. There is no de-grading in capabilities.

 

[Anurag Rathore]

Guys did i miss some action/???

Look man. Read up, that's all I am saying. You are comparing a 5th generation fighter with a 4.5 generation fighter. Due you have any idea of a concept of 'running costs'? There is no comparison between the 2. There is a reason why all airforces use multiple types of fighters. There is a reason why a country like the US, uses b-52s instead of B2 or the B1-B. Its called operational costs. So, 2 years is not a big time. There is no de-grading in capabilities.

2 years really
i think it will be for than tripple of than i mean till 2018-20

 

[sardar1987]

First prototype of Tejas mk2 is going to be roll out next year. It will take some time to catch up with others.
In case of war with pak we don't have to worry about it. But in case China they have more fighters than us. Thats why we need Rafale like fighters. Tejas is going to be an interceptor but not our mainstay fighter. It will replace the aging fleet of mig21s.

It won't be an interceptor only if we really want.Just very good avionics are gonna change that but india is never gonna invest wisely....never

I say again its a mistake.......if we are willing to invest 20 billion in rafale with delivery starting 2018 why the hell are we crying when we can't develop kaveri for a meagre resources of 640 milliom$ spread over like 20 years!!!
Is that sane?We need to invest more in our industry starting today and buy more mki instead of new platform and concentrate on making engines and stuff meanwhile

If we invest even a half of rafale cost in india itself with private participation we will see results within 6-7 years as

1)we already have a low performing kaveri engine so we are not starting from scratch

2)Hal could be privatized to prevent research from scratch

And we will have an engine by the time we start inducting pakfa in 2022

Can't we do with just more mki's for 8 years more??

 

[Anurag Rathore]

Look at chinese in 90's

1)they were producing very inferior weapons

2)everyone laughed at them

But after working on domestic industries for 15 years look at j-20 and see the progress they have made,we just look at short picture and have lost long perspective somehow

Personally i would prefer tejas mk 2 over even rafale if we ramp up indigenous content to include everything except engine(it will take time) why u ask me?

1)in case of war we can ramp up production anytime we need

2)great boost to indigenous sector

3)wayyy cheaper

4)decreasing import bill and current account deficit

Agreed and everyone knows in war quantity matter who stays till llast
Jai Hind

 

[sardar1987]

Look man. Read up, that's all I am saying. You are comparing a 5th generation fighter with a 4.5 generation fighter. Due you have any idea of a concept of 'running costs'? There is no comparison between the 2. There is a reason why all airforces use multiple types of fighters. There is a reason why a country like the US, uses b-52s instead of B2 or the B1-B. Its called operational costs. So, 2 years is not a big time. There is no de-grading in capabilities.

The point is there weapons whether the name changes or not come from only 2-3 suppliers only.Here we will be juggling with god knows how many.Uniformity of weapon systems is the best thing in cases of war in my opinion.........and i am optimistic that scenario will change

But if we invest 20 billion on rafale and 35 on fgfa tell me

1)can we invest in kaveri? mo

2)amca? no

3)local industry? no

Only investment will be made by hal itself and its so meagre that things won't change and we will loose another 20 years and by that time some new type of engines and avionics will come

what then?

 

[Anurag Rathore]

I like one thing about USA that is they are mean..
and there this instinct is by birth in them
they stick to what is best in there interests
we shud learn from them
dnt be slaves of russian
moke pe chauka maaro bhaiyon..

 

[Indo-guy]

In this world there is no permanent friend only permanent interest exists. Indo-US are not so closer as you think. They never provide us any sort of tot. US weapons comes with lots of string attached. Last time they didn't provide us tot for javelin missiles. Some equipments of c130j and P8Is also. Yes no one can predict future but if you give access your best top notch items to some one like unpredictable US then it is like doing suicide.

LOL I have been always cautionary about Indo-US camaraderie that's going on ...I had serious issue about how India voted against Iran under US pressure ....
In 1940's when Project Manhattan was underway ( mammoth project that lead to creation of nukes ) Britain provided with men ,machine and money...despite this when US actually got nukes...it literally kicked it's longest and staunchest ally out ...refusing to part with war winning weapon technology !

US has always been like that ...and would remain so ...and we need to be cautious. Yet we live in difficult world ...and the most dangerous neighborhoods - surrounded with failed/failing states ...with nukes . We have to be pragmatic to keep all options open for we do not know how future will open up ...Nobody is asking for our prime assets ...and we are not parting with it either. at the same time we should not write off our options about future which we have no idea how will turn out .

Having said that I stop here ...for it is unnecessary deviation from main topic !!!

 

[sardar1987]

Agreed and everyone knows in war quantity matter who stays till llast
Jai Hind

I guess no senior member agrees with us man that this is the way forward...........quality will matter only if u have a good quantity and inhouse production otherwise who knows who attacks us tomorrow

 

[Anurag Rathore]

The point is there weapons whether the name changes or not come from only 2-3 suppliers only.Here we will be juggling with god knows how many.Uniformity of weapon systems is the best thing in cases of war in my opinion.........and i am optimistic that scenario will change

But if we invest 20 billion on rafale and 35 on fgfa tell me

1)can we invest in kaveri? mo

2)amca? no

3)local industry? no

Only investment will be made by hal itself and its so meagre that things won't change and we will loose another 20 years and by that time some new type of engines and avionics will come

what then?

veere hauli hauli comment kar thoda padne da mauka vi de do

I guess no senior member agrees with us man that this is the way forward...........quality will matter only if u have a good quantity and inhouse production otherwise who knows who attacks us tomorrow

They belive that buying 22 apaches will make a diffrence when the chinese will have centries of wz 10 helis

same way it appplies in other equip

 

[sardar1987]

LOL I have been always cautionary about Indo-US camaraderie that's going on ...I had serious issue about how India voted against Iran under US pressure ....
In 1940's when Project Manhattan was underway ( mammoth project that lead to creation of nukes ) Britain provided with men ,machine and money...despite this when US actually got nukes...it literally kicked it's longest and staunchest ally out ...refusing to part with war winning weapon technology !

US has always been like that ...and would remain so ...and we need to be cautious. Yet we live in difficult world ...and the most dangerous neighborhoods - surrounded with failed/failing states ...with nukes . We have to be pragmatic to keep all options open for we do not know how future will open up ...Nobody is asking for our prime assets ...and we are not parting with it either. at the same time we should not write off our options about future which we have no idea how will turn out .

Having said that I stop here ...for it is unnecessary deviation from main topic !!!

But why no senior member endorses this view??

Importing costly toys will **** us up like we can't even open our submatine(sindhurakshak) without external help!!
God help us

 

[Indo-guy]

It won't be an interceptor only if we really want.Just very good avionics are gonna change that but india is never gonna invest wisely....never

I say again its a mistake.......if we are willing to invest 20 billion in rafale with delivery starting 2018 why the hell are we crying when we can't develop kaveri for a meagre resources of 640 milliom$ spread over like 20 years!!!
Is that sane?We need to invest more in our industry starting today and buy more mki instead of new platform and concentrate on making engines and stuff meanwhile

If we invest even a half of rafale cost in india itself with private participation we will see results within 6-7 years as

1)we already have a low performing kaveri engine so we are not starting from scratch

2)Hal could be privatized to prevent research from scratch

And we will have an engine by the time we start inducting pakfa in 2022

Can't we do with just more mki's for 8 years more??

I agree . we have to believe in ourselves ...given right resources we can do it ... Look how " AGNI " programme has matured with right resources and backing ...