Is Dassault Raffale a Wrong choice by India?

[Anurag Rathore]

But why no senior member endorses this view??

Importing costly toys will **** us up like we can't even open our submatine(sindhurakshak) without external help!!
God help us

We we import there is no scope for indegenous development as there are various rules we can't manufacture weapons or modify the planes to our needs this slows down indian indegeneous industries in avoinics,radars and weapons

in case o war what will u prefer that we buy bullets too
i think sen. members want tht because they love all tags except MADE IN INDIA

 

[sardar1987]

We we import there is no scope for indegenous development as there are various rules we can't manufacture weapons or modify the planes to our needs this slows down indian indegeneous industries in avoinics,radars and weapons

in case o war what will u prefer that we buy bullets too
i think sen. members want tht because they love all tags except MADE IN INDIA

And why is everyone just advising us to close this thread??
Truth hurts and so do imports,,,,if we invest on engine and avionics and privatise hal or atleast seel 30-40 % to a domestic player u will see us exporting stuff in 8-10 years at least to nepal,srilanka etc

I agree . we have to believe in ourselves ...given right resources we can do it ... Look how " AGNI " programme has matured with right resources and backing ...

No one here at this forum agrees with this,,,,how do u expect babus to listen,,,,lol

 

[SRP]

It won't be an interceptor only if we really want.Just very good avionics are gonna change that but india is never gonna invest wisely....never

I say again its a mistake.......if we are willing to invest 20 billion in rafale with delivery starting 2018 why the hell are we crying when we can't develop kaveri for a meagre resources of 640 milliom$ spread over like 20 years!!!
Is that sane?We need to invest more in our industry starting today and buy more mki instead of new platform and concentrate on making engines and stuff meanwhile

If we invest even a half of rafale cost in india itself with private participation we will see results within 6-7 years as

1)we already have a low performing kaveri engine so we are not starting from scratch

2)Hal could be privatized to prevent research from scratch

And we will have an engine by the time we start inducting pakfa in 2022

Can't we do with just more mki's for 8 years more??

LCA will only be an interceptor as its fighting range is very low.

If this year Rafale deal conclude then in b/w three years we have a squadron of Rafale in our service and from that time we will start producing Rafales in HAL facilities. Don't you think Rafale will give us some new technologies to us? We are getting full tot for our money not only the aircraft.

Kaveri is ready but it does not provide required thrust, so we have to buy American engines. Kaveri will be used in future UCAV.

You are advocating for FGFA but you need to understand that FGFA will only be inducted on 2022. Still 9 long years to go and what will be the size of IAF by then if you don't induct Rafale.

Let me tell you some thing

heavy class fighters- Su30 mki/ FGFA- Air superiority
Medium class fighters- Mig 29/ Rafale/mirage 2000- Air superiority/ Air to ground
Light fighter/ point defence fighter- LCA/ Mig21s

We are already inducting Su30 mki and will induct FGFA from 2022(probably) onwards.

For medium class role we need rafale as from 2025 onwards mig29s/ mirages will be started phase out from service.

As far as LCA concerned its range is too low for fight in other country.

 

[Anurag Rathore]

And why is everyone just advising us to close this thread??
Truth hurts and so do imports,,,,if we invest on engine and avionics and privatise hal or atleast seel 30-40 % to a domestic player u will see us exporting stuff in 8-10 years at least to nepal,srilanka etc

and we should start it by insteaded of buying our private buisness giants should have joint venture
as tata has with denel
i heard tilaence with boeing or lockheed

LCA will only be an interceptor as its fighting range is very low.

If this year Rafale deal conclude then in b/w three years we have a squadron of Rafale in our service and from that time we will start producing Rafales in HAL facilities. Don't you think Rafale will give us some new technologies to us? We are getting full tot for our money not only the aircraft.

Kaveri is ready but it does not provide required thrust, so we have to buy American engines. Kaveri will be used in future UCAV.

You are advocating for FGFA but you need to understand that FGFA will only be inducted on 2022. Still 9 long years to go and what will be the size of IAF by then if you don't induct Rafale.

Let me tell you some thing

heavy class fighters- Su30 mki/ FGFA- Air superiority
Medium class fighters- Mig 29/ Rafale/mirage 2000- Air superiority/ Air to ground
Light fighter/ point defence fighter- LCA/ Mig21s

We are already inducting Su30 mki and will induct FGFA from 2022(probably) onwards.

For medium class role we need rafale as from 2025 onwards mig29s/ mirages will be started phase out from service.

As far as LCA concerned its range is too low for fight in other country.

But sir why don't u guys understand money wasted on this french raffale i waste as one very cheap rates we get mig 35 which is russian has more scopeof upgradation and is comparable to raffale and in many aspects is better
the money saved in buying migs over raffale can be used for lca and kaveri

 

[sardar1987]

LCA will only be an interceptor as its fighting range is very low.

If this year Rafale deal conclude then in b/w three years we have a squadron of Rafale in our service and from that time we will start producing Rafales in HAL facilities. Don't you think Rafale will give us some new technologies to us? We are getting full tot for our money not only the aircraft.

Kaveri is ready but it does not provide required thrust, so we have to buy American engines. Kaveri will be used in future UCAV.

You are advocating for FGFA but you need to understand that FGFA will only be inducted on 2022. Still 9 long years to go and what will be the size of IAF by then if you don't induct Rafale.

Let me tell you some thing

heavy class fighters- Su30 mki/ FGFA- Air superiority
Medium class fighters- Mig 29/ Rafale/mirage 2000- Air superiority/ Air to ground
Light fighter/ point defence fighter- LCA/ Mig21s

We are already inducting Su30 mki and will induct FGFA from 2022(probably) onwards.

For medium class role we need rafale as from 2025 onwards mig29s/ mirages will be started phase out from service.

As far as LCA concerned its range is too low for fight in other country.

Dude pls try to understand what i am advocating

1)Buy any ,,,i mean any new 4/4.5 generation fighter but price should be only upto 60 million dollars max.

2)pump the net money saved(to the tune of 7-8 billion) in local industry including engine and avionics

3)privatise hal or sell at least 30-40 percent of that

Anything less is suicidal in long run,,,,mark my word.........if we don't go this way we will never develop kaveri as


MONEY=CONSTANT(for now)

SPENDING MONEY ON BUYING LIMIT EXPENDITURE ON R AND D

and we should start it by insteaded of buying our private buisness giants should have joint venture
as tata has with denel
i heard tilaence with boeing or lockheed



But sir why don't u guys understand money wasted on this french raffale i waste as one very cheap rates we get mig 35 which is russian has more scopeof upgradation and is comparable to raffale and in many aspects is better
the money saved in buying migs over raffale can be used for lca and kaveri

iF AT ALL JV HAS TO BE DONE .............why not b/w hal and private players or drdo and our industry??

 

[sardar1987]

and we should start it by insteaded of buying our private buisness giants should have joint venture
as tata has with denel
i heard tilaence with boeing or lockheed

Why not buy mig 35 and upgrade its aesa with israeli aesa or use our own aesa being developed for tejas on it??

But sir why don't u guys understand money wasted on this french raffale i waste as one very cheap rates we get mig 35 which is russian has more scopeof upgradation and is comparable to raffale and in many aspects is better
the money saved in buying migs over raffale can be used for lca and kaveri

Why not buy mig 35 and upgrade its aesa with israeli aesa or use our own aesa being developed for tejas on it??
Pakki pakai kheer khane ki aadat aachi nahi

 

[SRP]

But sir why don't u guys understand money wasted on this french raffale i waste as one very cheap rates we get mig 35 which is russian has more scopeof upgradation and is comparable to raffale and in many aspects is better
the money saved in buying migs over raffale can be used for lca and kaveri

Mig 35 is a derivative of Mig29 which we are using from 80s. It has few new technology and can't be compared to Rafale. It has problem in itself. Even Russian Air force showing little interest in it. Western weapons don't need much of maintenance as Russian weapons need. Life cycle cost is much low for Rafale than Mig35. Rafale is already proven in Mali, war in Afghanistan. Rafale has some amazing technogies like SPECTRA only after F22's ...(i don't remember that name). Rafale has an AESA radar which lacks in Mig35. Western weapons will give us more advantageous position than Russian weapons in a war. People why thinks quantity can achieve more over quality.

 

[surya kiran]

The point is there weapons whether the name changes or not come from only 2-3 suppliers only.Here we will be juggling with god knows how many.Uniformity of weapon systems is the best thing in cases of war in my opinion.........and i am optimistic that scenario will change

But if we invest 20 billion on rafale and 35 on fgfa tell me

1)can we invest in kaveri? mo

2)amca? no

3)local industry? no

Only investment will be made by hal itself and its so meagre that things won't change and we will loose another 20 years and by that time some new type of engines and avionics will come

what then?

Like I said, please read. All your queries are answered in the relevant sections. And you are ill informed about the contract on the Rafale, evident from your HAL, kaveri, amca, local industry comments. Read.

Why not buy mig 35 and upgrade its aesa with israeli aesa or use our own aesa being developed for tejas on it??
Pakki pakai kheer khane ki aadat aachi nahi

The Mig 35 did not fulfill the requirements. How difficult is that to understand?

 

[sardar1987]

Like I said, please read. All your queries are answered in the relevant sections. And you are ill informed about the contract on the Rafale, evident from your HAL, kaveri, amca, local industry comments. Read.



The Mig 35 did not fulfill the requirements. How difficult is that to understand?

I know exactly what i am talking about....
What about the defence r&d i am talking about?


Agreed rafale is way superior,who doubts that? me? not at all

All i am saying is money is better spent developing the above technologies i mentioned otherwise

AFTER 25-30 YEARS WE WILL STILL HAVE NOTHING AND WOULD BE HOLDING ANOTHER MMRCA

Mig 35 is a derivative of Mig29 which we are using from 80s. It has few new technology and can't be compared to Rafale. It has problem in itself. Even Russian Air force showing little interest in it. Western weapons don't need much of maintenance as Russian weapons need. Life cycle cost is much low for Rafale than Mig35. Rafale is already proven in Mali, war in Afghanistan. Rafale has some amazing technogies like SPECTRA only after F22's ...(i don't remember that name). Rafale has an AESA radar which lacks in Mig35. Western weapons will give us more advantageous position than Russian weapons in a war. People why thinks quantity can achieve more over quality.

Mig -35 has an aesa zhuk-ae
Agreed its liquid cooled and not that good as rafale's but its not so bad that we start laughing at it,just read what i am suggesting.

 

[SRP]

Dude pls try to understand what i am advocating

1)Buy any ,,,i mean any new 4/4.5 generation fighter but price should be only upto 60 million dollars max.

2)pump the net money saved(to the tune of 7-8 billion) in local industry including engine and avionics

3)privatise hal or sell at least 30-40 percent of that

Anything less is suicidal in long run,,,,mark my word.........if we don't go this way we will never develop kaveri as


MONEY=CONSTANT(for now)

SPENDING MONEY ON BUYING LIMIT EXPENDITURE ON R AND D


iF AT ALL JV HAS TO BE DONE .............why not b/w hal and private players or drdo and our industry??

Do you think our DRDO and private players with zero knowledge of building a trainer let alone a 4.5 gen fighter in 10 year period. Can you trust on them? Answer is big NO.

You are talking about price of Rafale. Let me tell you something the upgrade of super sukhoi is also going to be over 100 million per aircraft. Do you know what is the RCS of Sukhoi against Rafale? If you want best you have to give money for it. Rafale is best in its own right.

 

[sardar1987]

Do you think our DRDO and private players with zero knowledge of building a trainer let alone a 4.5 gen fighter in 10 year period. Can you trust on them? Answer is big NO.

You are talking about price of Rafale. Let me tell you something the upgrade of super sukhoi is also going to be over 100 million per aircraft. Do you know what is the RCS of Sukhoi against Rafale? If you want best you have to give money for it. Rafale is best in its own right.

Man u are right..........so it means we will never start producing anything???
This is unacceptable,,but how do u hold hal responsible and drdo for the matter when u DON'T INVEST ANY MONEY??
Where will money come from if we keep on spending like on rafale deal......we have to compromise short term situation inorder to kick local industry to do well

And by the way we can have at least su-35 if mig 35 is not good enough,still saves a lot of money for research

 

[SRP]

I know exactly what i am talking about....
What about the defence r&d i am talking about?


Agreed rafale is way superior,who doubts that? me? not at all

All i am saying is money is better spent developing the above technologies i mentioned otherwise

AFTER 25-30 YEARS WE WILL STILL HAVE NOTHING AND WOULD BE HOLDING ANOTHER MMRCA


Mig -35 has an aesa zhuk-ae
Agreed its liquid cooled and not that good as rafale's but its not so bad that we start laughing at it,just read what i am suggesting.

Dude if you are believing on big mouthed DRDO and HAL then you are fooling yourself. They can't simply absorb the tot, how can they provide us much needed equipments in time. After getting bofors tot till date they do not able to produce a howitzer. You are saying we should buy mig35 etc etc from Russia. Let me remind you that the same equipment China is buying from them and reverse engineer it and produce it in large numbers. In numbers game you can't match China but if you have qualitative advantage you can hold them for sure.

 

[sardar1987]

Man u are right..........so it means we will never start producing anything???
This is unacceptable,,but how do u hold hal responsible and drdo for the matter when u DON'T INVEST ANY MONEY??
Where will money come from if we keep on spending like on rafale deal......we have to compromise short term situation inorder to kick local industry to do well

And by the way we can have at least su-35 if mig 35 is not good enough,still saves a lot of money for research

We are not a 8 trillion dollar economy that we can't compromise on these things.......and such attitude of buying such expensive stuff has taken its toll on local industry that gets no money.................see for kaveri's example


They gave only 650 million dollars in 15-20 years like 20 -30 per year??
what do u expect?pratt and whitney f-135?

this whole thing is ludicrous

 

[SRP]

Man u are right..........so it means we will never start producing anything???
This is unacceptable,,but how do u hold hal responsible and drdo for the matter when u DON'T INVEST ANY MONEY??
Where will money come from if we keep on spending like on rafale deal......we have to compromise short term situation inorder to kick local industry to do well

And by the way we can have at least su-35 if mig 35 is not good enough,still saves a lot of money for research

We are investing and will invest in defence R&D no matter what but we can't wait for DRDO and HAL products. They promise big and fulfill little. Thats why armed forces are looking at alternative sources outside India.

Do you know about latest defence acquisition policy?

Rafale will be produced in India and half of the contract value will be spent on HAL and other facilities. Don't you think this will help our defence PSUs?

 

[surya kiran]

I know exactly what i am talking about....
What about the defence r&d i am talking about?


Agreed rafale is way superior,who doubts that? me? not at all

All i am saying is money is better spent developing the above technologies i mentioned otherwise

AFTER 25-30 YEARS WE WILL STILL HAVE NOTHING AND WOULD BE HOLDING ANOTHER MMRCA


Mig -35 has an aesa zhuk-ae
Agreed its liquid cooled and not that good as rafale's but its not so bad that we start laughing at it,just read what i am suggesting.

Yaar what are you ranting about? Seriously? You are wrong on all counts. ToT, Mig-35, Kaveri, local industry and HAL.I pointed out the same and you side stepped the points.

You are simply farting around in all the thread with half baked information. Why don't you spend some time learning and reading?

25 to 30 years of what? Developing the LCA? Do you have any idea what it was about or did you just wake up in the morning and decide, I need to brain fart today? The 35 number you are quoting is a part of the project not complete. Again, had you gone through the threads you would have found this out. If you had spent a minute on reading the MMRCA thread you would realise what the problem was. Your complete point of the Mig35 + AESE is voila super duper again fails.

READ man! Stop making a fool of yourself.