Is Dassault Raffale a Wrong choice by India?

[SRP]

SURE...............totally convinced

The flaw in su-35 are 2

1) pesa radar

2) ew suite not up to mark

solution

1)niip no50 aesa is ready and could be integrated
2)consider israeli ew suite

You are saying like buy it from market and integrate it in aircraft. What rubbish.

 

[sardar1987]

Dude you have no idea what you are talking about. Wind tunnel testing center is not in India how the hell we tested our LCA! RCS and radar testing centers are also present in India. You have to look into corresponding sticky threads to get more knowledge about it.



Stop trolling. We can say the same about you also.

I accept the mistake where its due but all the other points stand.......

 

[surya kiran]

Don't show off ur knowledge.......i know what i am saying
The problem india was facing was funds back then and now we have money and what are we doing??

1)no r and d

2)buying everything off shelf(i consider assembly too as equivalent of buying)

3)So right now def we made wrong choice as we could have done better

Ok humour me.

No R&D - Hm....in which field?
Buying off shelf - which one? FMS does not count.
Wrong choice - Based on what parameter. Please state parameters, not your view point.

P.S : Instead of continuously saying you know what you are saying and then coming out with bloopers, why don't you read?

 

[SRP]

As far as i know mig 35 has Phazotron Zhuk AE AESA radar
and raffale Thales RBE2 radar



Mate know one is born with gold spoon
so is indian defence they need to learn from life
and learning requires practical
nd u mean we shud continue buying foreign stuff and never think to manufacture ours

Which AESA is superior? Ans- RBE-2

For the sake of R & D you can't kill an Air force. Do you have any idea in which rate our squadron level is depleting? Because of incompetency of HAL and ADA how many pilots lost their life? No we can't risk life of our pilots for the sake of our R&D.

R&D and procurement needs to go parallel.

 

[sardar1987]

Ok humour me.

No R&D - Hm....in which field?
Buying off shelf - which one? FMS does not count.
Wrong choice - Based on what parameter. Please state parameters, not your view point.

So now you think we are doing an acceptable amount of r and d??Do u live in india?

1)In any field.....we haven't produced even a good razor blade man(truth be told)

2)in pharmaceuticals we make only generic medicines,ie copies of foreign medicines

3)in defence-i guess u know better

4)space- we are going to test a cryogenic engine in 2013..........do i need to say more

5)auto sector-only tata nano engine(625 cc 2 cylinder engine).......that too mostly provided by bosch

so tell me man are u proud of the above scenario??
i am not
India still lagging in innovation, R&D spend | Business Line

 

[SRP]

U know the bread and butter of rafale is ddm tech(spectra suite ets)
You will be a fool to even think we will get that tech..............even after 10 years of operating su-30 with complete tot(as if it really exists) we cannot even make a pulse doppler radar or even a radome itself!!

So there are only 2 options

1)either hal is super dumb
2) tot is a joke,,,,we just integrate stuff,thats all

i think option 2 is better

Now you started giving answer to your own questions.

 

[sardar1987]

Which AESA is superior? Ans- RBE-2

For the sake of R & D you can't kill an Air force. Do you have any idea in which rate our squadron level is depleting? Because of incompetency of HAL and ADA how many pilots lost their life? No we can't risk life of our pilots for the sake of our R&D.

R&D and procurement needs to go parallel.

What do u mean kill air force??
will rafale have such advantage as compared to su-35 with pakfa aesa as u claim?

Now you started giving answer to your own questions.

i said privatize it.......do u read???

Now you started giving answer to your own questions.

and how will then rafale tot help.....pls elaborate?

 

[Anurag Rathore]

Which AESA is superior? Ans- RBE-2

For the sake of R & D you can't kill an Air force. Do you have any idea in which rate our squadron level is depleting? Because of incompetency of HAL and ADA how many pilots lost their life? No we can't risk life of our pilots for the sake of our R&D.

R&D and procurement needs to go parallel.

Than you mean that su 35 and mig 35 are jokes they will have monthly crashes
o plzz stop trolling
su 35 is superior to raffale
and mig 35 is equivalent

 

[sardar1987]

Than you mean that su 35 and mig 35 are jokes they will have monthly crashes
o plzz stop trolling
su 35 is superior to raffale
and mig 35 is equivalent

No that would be a lie

Mig 35 is not at that level but its according to its price very good machine

Su-35 with aesa absolutely destroys rafale.......yes it needs good israeli ew suite(conceded)

But apart from that rbe2 aesa is no match for no50 niip aesa

 

[Anurag Rathore]

Which AESA is superior? Ans- RBE-2

For the sake of R & D you can't kill an Air force. Do you have any idea in which rate our squadron level is depleting? Because of incompetency of HAL and ADA how many pilots lost their life? No we can't risk life of our pilots for the sake of our R&D.

R&D and procurement needs to go parallel.

Sukhoi Su-35


General characteristics

Crew: 1
Length: 21.9 m (72.9 ft)
Wingspan: 15.3 m (50.2 ft)
Height: 5.90 m (19.4 ft)
Wing area: 62.0 m² (667 ft²)
Empty weight: 18,400 kg (40,570 lb)
Loaded weight: 25,300 kg (56,660 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 34,500 kg (76,060 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × Saturn 117S with TVC nozzle turbofan
Dry thrust: 8,800 kgf[90] (86.3 kN, 19,400 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 14,500 kgf (142 kN, 31,900 lbf) each

Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 2.25 (2,390 km/h, 1,490 mph) at altitude
Range: 3,600 km (1,940 nmi) ; (1,580 km, 850 nmi near ground level)
Ferry range: 4,500 km (2,430 nmi) with external fuel tanks
Service ceiling: 18,000 m (59,100 ft)
Rate of climb: >280 m/s (>55,100 ft/min)
Wing loading: 408 kg/m² (84.9 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 1.13

Armament

1 × 30 mm GSh-30 internal cannon with 150 rounds
2 × wingtip rails for R-73 air-to-air missiles or ECM pods
12 × wing and fuselage stations for up to 8,000 kg (17,630 lb) of ordnance, including a variety of air-to-air missiles, air-to-surface missiles, rockets, and bombs such as:
Vympel R-27: R-27R, R-27ER, R-27T, R-27ET, R-27EP, R-27AE
Vympel R-77: R-77, and the proposed R-77M1, R-77T
Vympel R-73: R-73E, R-73M, R-74M
Kh-31: Kh-31A, Kh-31P Anti-Radiation Missile
Kh-59
Kh-29: Kh-29T, Kh-29L
KAB-500L laser-guided bomb
KAB-1500 laser-guided bomb
LGB-250 laser-guided bomb
FAB-250 250 kilograms (550 lb) unguided bombs
FAB-500 500 kilograms (1,100 lb) unguided bombs
S-25LD laser-guided rocket, S-250 unguided rocket
B-8 unguided S-8 rocket pods
B-13 unguided S-13 rocket pods

Avionics

Irbis-E passive phased array radar









Dassault Rafale


General characteristics

Crew: 1–2
Length: 15.27 m (50.1 ft)
Wingspan: 10.80 m (35.4 ft)
Height: 5.34 m (17.5 ft)
Wing area: 45.7 m² (492 ft²)
Empty weight:
C: 9,500 kilograms (21,000 lb)
B: 9,770 kilograms (21,500 lb)
M: 10,196 kilograms (22,480 lb)[164] ()
Loaded weight: 14,016 kg (30,900 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 24,500 kg (C/D), 22,200 kg (M) (54,000 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × Snecma M88-2 turbofans
Dry thrust: 50.04 kN (11,250 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 75.62 kN (17,000 lbf) each
Fuel capacity: 4,700 kg (10,000 lb) internal

Performance

Maximum speed:
High altitude: Mach 1.8+ (2,130+ km/h, 1,050+ knots)
Low altitude: Mach 1.1+ (1,390 km/h, 750 knots)
Range: 3,700+ km (2,000+ nmi)
Combat radius: 1,852+ km (1,000+ nmi) on penetration mission
Service ceiling: 16,800 m (55,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 304.8+ m/s (60,000+ ft/min)
Wing loading: 306 kg/m² (62.8 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.988 (100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile) version M

Armament

Guns: 1× 30 mm (1.18 in) GIAT 30/719B autocannon with 125 rounds
Hardpoints: 14 for Air Force versions (Rafale B/C), 13 for Navy version (Rafale M) with a capacity of 9,500 kg (21,000 lb) external fuel and ordnance and provisions to carry combinations of:
Missiles:
MBDA MICA IR or EM or Magic II and
MBDA Meteor air-to-air mssiles in the future
Air-to-ground:
MBDA Apache or
Storm Shadow-SCALP EG or
AASM-Hammer or
GBU-12 Paveway II or
AS-30L
Air-to-surface:
AM 39-Exocet
Deterrence:
ASMP-A nuclear missile
Other:
Thales Damocles targeting pod
RECO NG (New Generation) reconnaissance pod
up to 5 drop tanks
The Rafale can also carry a buddy-buddy refuelling pod[52]

Avionics

Thales RBE2 radar
Thales SPECTRA electronic warfare system.
Thales/SAGEM-OSF Optronique Secteur Frontal infra-red search and track system.

Look at that now trolling su35 is far superior

No that would be a lie

Mig 35 is not at that level but its according to its price very good machine

Su-35 with aesa absolutely destroys rafale.......yes it needs good israeli ew suite(conceded)

But apart from that rbe2 aesa is no match for no50 niip aesa

RAdar is not the think man do u really think that su35 radars are crap and raffale will just be at the back of su 35 nd it can'ty detect
stop trolling
u knw whats truth su35 can destroy raffale easiuly

 

[SRP]

What do u mean kill air force??
will rafale have such advantage as compared to su-35 with pakfa aesa as u claim?



i said privatize it.......do u read???



and how will then rafale tot help.....pls elaborate?

Yes if we don't induct new aircraft air force will die out of fighters.
Now you are bringing pakfa radars with RBE2. Su35 is a sitting duck against Rafale. Rafale will jam its radar and will make it blind and will kill it.

Privatization which is impossible.

Don't you understand half the value of the contract will be invested on setting up new facilities for producing the aircraft in India. Don't you think this will help HAL?

Than you mean that su 35 and mig 35 are jokes they will have monthly crashes
o plzz stop trolling
su 35 is superior to raffale
and mig 35 is equivalent

You have no idea what you are talking about. Su35 seriously. haha

Who said they are jokes but not upto the standard. They are no match for Rafale. They are already tested by IAF and rejected.

 

[sardar1987]

Yes if we don't induct new aircraft air force will die out of fighters.
Now you are bringing pakfa radars with RBE2. Su35 is a sitting duck against Rafale. Rafale will jam its radar and will make it blind and will kill it.

Privatization which is impossible.

Don't you understand half the value of the contract will be invested on setting up new facilities for producing the aircraft in India. Don't you think this will help HAL?



You have no idea what you are talking about. Su35 seriously. haha

Who said they are jokes but not upto the standard. They are no match for Rafale. They are already tested by IAF and rejected.

This is laughable dude

rafale will blind the su-35....sure

by the way niip n050 is ready and it has gone into production

what happens if u upgrade su-35 with it??

i think u know the answer

 

[Anurag Rathore]

Yes if we don't induct new aircraft air force will die out of fighters.
Now you are bringing pakfa radars with RBE2. Su35 is a sitting duck against Rafale. Rafale will jam its radar and will make it blind and will kill it.

Privatization which is impossible.

Don't you understand half the value of the contract will be invested on setting up new facilities for producing the aircraft in India. Don't you think this will help HAL?



You have no idea what you are talking about. Su35 seriously. haha

Who said they are jokes but not upto the standard. They are no match for Rafale. They are already tested by IAF and rejected.

you seriously think that su 35 is inferior to raffale o plzz
with ew suites and radar it can't kill the beast
it has better bvr

 

[sardar1987]

This is laughable dude

rafale will blind the su-35....sure

by the way niip n050 is ready and it has gone into production

what happens if u upgrade su-35 with it??

i think u know the answer

You don't understand do u??
I am giving u solution to make a small compromise and turn out better after 8-10 years

Rafale as of now is superior but the way u are saying-no

and if we keep on following what u propose then just be ready for another mmrca after 25 years

 

[Anurag Rathore]

This is laughable dude

rafale will blind the su-35....sure

by the way niip n050 is ready and it has gone into production

what happens if u upgrade su-35 with it??

i think u know the answer

Rafale
For comparison, the combat capabilities of the Su-35 and Rafale choose a configuration with a range equal to:

10,460 kg (equipment) + 100 kg (pilot) + 4700 kg (fuel) + 370 kg (2 Meteor) + 672 kg (6 MICA) + 4125 kg (3 EFT, 5295 kg of fuel) = 20 427 kg, the total weight of fuel 4700 kg + 5295 kg = 9995 kg.
The radius range of 1155 km, the range of 3300 km. Fuel consumption of 3 kg / km

RCS in this configuration.
RCS min. = 2.8 sq.m., on the pendants 3 PTB + 2 Meteor + 6 MICA = 11 points.
RCS = (2.8 m + 11 m) * 0.5 = 6.9 sq.m.

Su-35
combat load
4 RVV-MD, 4 x 106 kg = 424 kg. 4 P-72 x 49 kg = 196 kg.
6 RVV-SD, 6 x 190 kg = 1140 kg. AKU-170E 6 x 61 kg = 366 kg.
2 RVV-BD, 2 x 510 kg = 1020 kg. AKU-58AE 2 x 186 kg = 372 kg.
424 kg + 196 kg + 1140 kg + 366 kg + 1020 kg + 372 kg = 3518 kg

4 RVV-MD, 4 x 106 kg = 424 kg. 4 P-72 x 49 kg = 196 kg.
4 RVV-SD, 4 x 190 kg = 760 kg. AKU-170E 4 x 61 kg = 244 kg.
4 RVV-BD, 4 x 510 kg = 2040 kg. AKU-58AE 4 x 186 kg = 744 kg. distance of 200 km / 300 km, warhead. 60 kg.
424 kg + 196 kg + 760 kg + 244 kg + 2040 kg + 744 kg = 4408 kg

Take-off weight in this configuration
17,550 (blank) + 100 kg (pilot) + 11500 kg (fuel) + 4408 kg (load) = 33,558 kg
Flight distance in this configuration with a load of 3300 km.
RCS in this configuration.
RCS min. = 2.5 sq.m.
RCS = (2.5 m + 12 m) * 0.5 = 7.25 sq.m.

Whats with the Meteor vs. RVV-BD really? Meteor is not even in service, and yet to be intagrated to Rafale. Same goes for RVV-BD and Su-35. Current loadout of Rafale is MIRA IR/AR and Su-35 carries R-27T/TE/R/RE/P/AE and R-77.

R-77 in terms of weight, size, range, seeker etc etc, is equivalent to MICA AR. R-27RE and R-27AE outranges both by a quite margin. Then we have MICA IR, which is roughly matched by R-27T, and outranged by R-27TE. WHEN Meteor is finally integrated on Rafale, its range will easily be matched by R-27RE and R-27AE missiles.

As for a payload's effects on Su-35, I agree with JSR and Sens on this one. For whatever reasons, Su-35 can reach M2.2 with 2x R-27RE 2xR-77 and 2xR-73 missiles and Rafale can not. Reason -like Kovy stated- is the variable intake ramps on Su-35, but the reason is irrelevant here. VG inlets increase inlet pressure, that increases dynamic T/W at supersonic speeds, and that has positive effect on supersonic acceleration, climb and turning performance. Rafale doesn't have them, and its engines will be generating less than a third of their advertised thrust at high supersonic speeds. With equivalent 6 missile payload, Rafale will likely struggle to climb or accelerate or sustain a turn at anywhere above M1.5, but Su-35 wont.

How much performance degradation would occur if R-27 missiles (350kg 23cm diameter) were to be replaced by R-37 (600kg, 38cm diameter)? 500kg increase on a fighter that weight 25+ tons at NTOW? or a 0.1125 m2 increase of frontal area on a fighter that has a wingspan of 15,3 meters? My answer would be: quite negligable.

Comparing Meteor with R-37 (or RVV-BD) is non-sense IMHO. Despite the Ramjet engine, Meteor is rated at 100+ km range and R-37 missile is rated at 400km. Obviously latter is bigger and more draggy, just as AIM-120 is more draggy than AIM-9.

Irbis/R-37 combination will outrange RBE-2/Meteor combination irrelevant of the miniature RCS differences on a two non-stealthy fighters. For the sake of argument, lets assume for a second Su-35/Irbis combo is inferior to RBE-2/Rafale, and assume EW on Su-35 could not detect the LPI mode of RBE-2. What would happen? As soon as RBE-2 enters STT it will have to give up LPI mode and focus on target to get vector data, and be detected to EW on Su-35. If that happens 90km, Meteor would barely reach Su-35 and most likely be evaded, but 90 km is likely to be within NEZ of R-37. If Rafale pilot waits to force Su-35 into NEZ, it would be detected by Irbis and Rafale would be already R-37's NEZ.

You don't understand do u??
I am giving u solution to make a small compromise and turn out better after 8-10 years

Rafale as of now is superior but the way u are saying-no

and if we keep on following what u propose then just be ready for another mmrca after 25 years

After 1.17 hours after takeoff, the Su-35 will fire long-range missiles, will change its position and take a high altitude flight. After 1:25 hours after takeoff open fire medium-range missiles. All this time the Rafale can not return fire, had to actively maneuver, dropping external fuel tanks with the rest of 2055 kg. Probability of hitting the two targets eight missiles over 100% in ideal conditions.

Su-35 is a high probability to win the battle at two Rafale, with 10 RVV-SD and RVV-MD.

Fight on guns.
Maneuverability of the Su-35 exceeds the capabilities of Rafale, thanks to thrust vector control, greater thrust and lower wing loading. Weight second volley gun Nexter DEFA 791B slightly above GS-301 - 10.7 kg / s. vs. 9.75 kg / sec. At the same ammunition GS-301 150 shots, DEFA - 125 shots.
In any case Rafale would have to withdraw from the battle before the Su-35 due to the much smaller fuel capacity.

Super sukoi comes closer to Su-35 but not Su 35 as per RUSSIAN officials and INdian Officials... Su 35 as upper hand toward Su 35 MKI upgrade.