Is Dassault Raffale a Wrong choice by India?

[SRP]

Sukhoi Su-35


General characteristics

Crew: 1
Length: 21.9 m (72.9 ft)
Wingspan: 15.3 m (50.2 ft)
Height: 5.90 m (19.4 ft)
Wing area: 62.0 m² (667 ft²)
Empty weight: 18,400 kg (40,570 lb)
Loaded weight: 25,300 kg (56,660 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 34,500 kg (76,060 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × Saturn 117S with TVC nozzle turbofan
Dry thrust: 8,800 kgf[90] (86.3 kN, 19,400 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 14,500 kgf (142 kN, 31,900 lbf) each

Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 2.25 (2,390 km/h, 1,490 mph) at altitude
Range: 3,600 km (1,940 nmi) ; (1,580 km, 850 nmi near ground level)
Ferry range: 4,500 km (2,430 nmi) with external fuel tanks
Service ceiling: 18,000 m (59,100 ft)
Rate of climb: >280 m/s (>55,100 ft/min)
Wing loading: 408 kg/m² (84.9 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 1.13

Armament

1 × 30 mm GSh-30 internal cannon with 150 rounds
2 × wingtip rails for R-73 air-to-air missiles or ECM pods
12 × wing and fuselage stations for up to 8,000 kg (17,630 lb) of ordnance, including a variety of air-to-air missiles, air-to-surface missiles, rockets, and bombs such as:
Vympel R-27: R-27R, R-27ER, R-27T, R-27ET, R-27EP, R-27AE
Vympel R-77: R-77, and the proposed R-77M1, R-77T
Vympel R-73: R-73E, R-73M, R-74M
Kh-31: Kh-31A, Kh-31P Anti-Radiation Missile
Kh-59
Kh-29: Kh-29T, Kh-29L
KAB-500L laser-guided bomb
KAB-1500 laser-guided bomb
LGB-250 laser-guided bomb
FAB-250 250 kilograms (550 lb) unguided bombs
FAB-500 500 kilograms (1,100 lb) unguided bombs
S-25LD laser-guided rocket, S-250 unguided rocket
B-8 unguided S-8 rocket pods
B-13 unguided S-13 rocket pods

Avionics

Irbis-E passive phased array radar









Dassault Rafale


General characteristics

Crew: 1–2
Length: 15.27 m (50.1 ft)
Wingspan: 10.80 m (35.4 ft)
Height: 5.34 m (17.5 ft)
Wing area: 45.7 m² (492 ft²)
Empty weight:
C: 9,500 kilograms (21,000 lb)
B: 9,770 kilograms (21,500 lb)
M: 10,196 kilograms (22,480 lb)[164] ()
Loaded weight: 14,016 kg (30,900 lb)
Max. takeoff weight: 24,500 kg (C/D), 22,200 kg (M) (54,000 lb)
Powerplant: 2 × Snecma M88-2 turbofans
Dry thrust: 50.04 kN (11,250 lbf) each
Thrust with afterburner: 75.62 kN (17,000 lbf) each
Fuel capacity: 4,700 kg (10,000 lb) internal

Performance

Maximum speed:
High altitude: Mach 1.8+ (2,130+ km/h, 1,050+ knots)
Low altitude: Mach 1.1+ (1,390 km/h, 750 knots)
Range: 3,700+ km (2,000+ nmi)
Combat radius: 1,852+ km (1,000+ nmi) on penetration mission
Service ceiling: 16,800 m (55,000 ft)
Rate of climb: 304.8+ m/s (60,000+ ft/min)
Wing loading: 306 kg/m² (62.8 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 0.988 (100% fuel, 2 EM A2A missile, 2 IR A2A missile) version M

Armament

Guns: 1× 30 mm (1.18 in) GIAT 30/719B autocannon with 125 rounds
Hardpoints: 14 for Air Force versions (Rafale B/C), 13 for Navy version (Rafale M) with a capacity of 9,500 kg (21,000 lb) external fuel and ordnance and provisions to carry combinations of:
Missiles:
MBDA MICA IR or EM or Magic II and
MBDA Meteor air-to-air mssiles in the future
Air-to-ground:
MBDA Apache or
Storm Shadow-SCALP EG or
AASM-Hammer or
GBU-12 Paveway II or
AS-30L
Air-to-surface:
AM 39-Exocet
Deterrence:
ASMP-A nuclear missile
Other:
Thales Damocles targeting pod
RECO NG (New Generation) reconnaissance pod
up to 5 drop tanks
The Rafale can also carry a buddy-buddy refuelling pod[52]

Avionics

Thales RBE2 radar
Thales SPECTRA electronic warfare system.
Thales/SAGEM-OSF Optronique Secteur Frontal infra-red search and track system.

Look at that now trolling su35 is far superior


RAdar is not the think man do u really think that su35 radars are crap and raffale will just be at the back of su 35 nd it can'ty detect
stop trolling
u knw whats truth su35 can destroy raffale easiuly

Last thing you came up with specifications from wiki
In specification LCH is better than apache but in reality no match.

I am not trolling you are the one who is changing from lca to mig35 them to su35 then what not.

 

[sardar1987]

Rafale
For comparison, the combat capabilities of the Su-35 and Rafale choose a configuration with a range equal to:

10,460 kg (equipment) + 100 kg (pilot) + 4700 kg (fuel) + 370 kg (2 Meteor) + 672 kg (6 MICA) + 4125 kg (3 EFT, 5295 kg of fuel) = 20 427 kg, the total weight of fuel 4700 kg + 5295 kg = 9995 kg.
The radius range of 1155 km, the range of 3300 km. Fuel consumption of 3 kg / km

RCS in this configuration.
RCS min. = 2.8 sq.m., on the pendants 3 PTB + 2 Meteor + 6 MICA = 11 points.
RCS = (2.8 m + 11 m) * 0.5 = 6.9 sq.m.

Su-35
combat load
4 RVV-MD, 4 x 106 kg = 424 kg. 4 P-72 x 49 kg = 196 kg.
6 RVV-SD, 6 x 190 kg = 1140 kg. AKU-170E 6 x 61 kg = 366 kg.
2 RVV-BD, 2 x 510 kg = 1020 kg. AKU-58AE 2 x 186 kg = 372 kg.
424 kg + 196 kg + 1140 kg + 366 kg + 1020 kg + 372 kg = 3518 kg

4 RVV-MD, 4 x 106 kg = 424 kg. 4 P-72 x 49 kg = 196 kg.
4 RVV-SD, 4 x 190 kg = 760 kg. AKU-170E 4 x 61 kg = 244 kg.
4 RVV-BD, 4 x 510 kg = 2040 kg. AKU-58AE 4 x 186 kg = 744 kg. distance of 200 km / 300 km, warhead. 60 kg.
424 kg + 196 kg + 760 kg + 244 kg + 2040 kg + 744 kg = 4408 kg

Take-off weight in this configuration
17,550 (blank) + 100 kg (pilot) + 11500 kg (fuel) + 4408 kg (load) = 33,558 kg
Flight distance in this configuration with a load of 3300 km.
RCS in this configuration.
RCS min. = 2.5 sq.m.
RCS = (2.5 m + 12 m) * 0.5 = 7.25 sq.m.

Whats with the Meteor vs. RVV-BD really? Meteor is not even in service, and yet to be intagrated to Rafale. Same goes for RVV-BD and Su-35. Current loadout of Rafale is MIRA IR/AR and Su-35 carries R-27T/TE/R/RE/P/AE and R-77.

R-77 in terms of weight, size, range, seeker etc etc, is equivalent to MICA AR. R-27RE and R-27AE outranges both by a quite margin. Then we have MICA IR, which is roughly matched by R-27T, and outranged by R-27TE. WHEN Meteor is finally integrated on Rafale, its range will easily be matched by R-27RE and R-27AE missiles.

As for a payload's effects on Su-35, I agree with JSR and Sens on this one. For whatever reasons, Su-35 can reach M2.2 with 2x R-27RE 2xR-77 and 2xR-73 missiles and Rafale can not. Reason -like Kovy stated- is the variable intake ramps on Su-35, but the reason is irrelevant here. VG inlets increase inlet pressure, that increases dynamic T/W at supersonic speeds, and that has positive effect on supersonic acceleration, climb and turning performance. Rafale doesn't have them, and its engines will be generating less than a third of their advertised thrust at high supersonic speeds. With equivalent 6 missile payload, Rafale will likely struggle to climb or accelerate or sustain a turn at anywhere above M1.5, but Su-35 wont.

How much performance degradation would occur if R-27 missiles (350kg 23cm diameter) were to be replaced by R-37 (600kg, 38cm diameter)? 500kg increase on a fighter that weight 25+ tons at NTOW? or a 0.1125 m2 increase of frontal area on a fighter that has a wingspan of 15,3 meters? My answer would be: quite negligable.

Comparing Meteor with R-37 (or RVV-BD) is non-sense IMHO. Despite the Ramjet engine, Meteor is rated at 100+ km range and R-37 missile is rated at 400km. Obviously latter is bigger and more draggy, just as AIM-120 is more draggy than AIM-9.

Irbis/R-37 combination will outrange RBE-2/Meteor combination irrelevant of the miniature RCS differences on a two non-stealthy fighters. For the sake of argument, lets assume for a second Su-35/Irbis combo is inferior to RBE-2/Rafale, and assume EW on Su-35 could not detect the LPI mode of RBE-2. What would happen? As soon as RBE-2 enters STT it will have to give up LPI mode and focus on target to get vector data, and be detected to EW on Su-35. If that happens 90km, Meteor would barely reach Su-35 and most likely be evaded, but 90 km is likely to be within NEZ of R-37. If Rafale pilot waits to force Su-35 into NEZ, it would be detected by Irbis and Rafale would be already R-37's NEZ.



After 1.17 hours after takeoff, the Su-35 will fire long-range missiles, will change its position and take a high altitude flight. After 1:25 hours after takeoff open fire medium-range missiles. All this time the Rafale can not return fire, had to actively maneuver, dropping external fuel tanks with the rest of 2055 kg. Probability of hitting the two targets eight missiles over 100% in ideal conditions.

Su-35 is a high probability to win the battle at two Rafale, with 10 RVV-SD and RVV-MD.

Fight on guns.
Maneuverability of the Su-35 exceeds the capabilities of Rafale, thanks to thrust vector control, greater thrust and lower wing loading. Weight second volley gun Nexter DEFA 791B slightly above GS-301 - 10.7 kg / s. vs. 9.75 kg / sec. At the same ammunition GS-301 150 shots, DEFA - 125 shots.
In any case Rafale would have to withdraw from the battle before the Su-35 due to the much smaller fuel capacity.

Super sukoi comes closer to Su-35 but not Su 35 as per RUSSIAN officials and INdian Officials... Su 35 as upper hand toward Su 35 MKI upgrade.

I don't know why rafale is so superior to anything else......its aesa is tiny with only 1000 t/r modules and is not even mature as production started last year.......Its not apg-77 dude! wake up

AND sooner rather than later su-35 will be equipped with no50 aesa,,,,,rafale is fucked then
Regarding spectra do u seriously believe it to be so special that no one else can develop it,,,,common dude

Last thing you came up with specifications from wiki
In specification LCH is better than apache but in reality no match.

I am not trolling you are the one who is changing from lca to mig35 them to su35 then what not.

man u deal with me,,,,leave him aside.............answer my points

 

[SRP]

you seriously think that su 35 is inferior to raffale o plzz
with ew suites and radar it can't kill the beast
it has better bvr

Rafale has best electronic warfare suite other than F22. Agree or not?

Rafale will get the best BVR weapon in the form of meteor missile.

 

[sardar1987]

Rafale has best electronic warfare suite other than F22. Agree or not?

Rafale will get the best BVR weapon in the form of meteor missile.

Are u serious.........don't believe bullshit

Best ew suite is in f-35.....end of discussion

And if its so good why bother of fgfa??

hint-its not that good as u are making it to be,,,,certainly not worth 100 million and thats the reason it was rejected everywhere

It topped all tests,but too damn expensive and we are not so rich as to not consider cost

 

[SRP]

You don't understand do u??
I am giving u solution to make a small compromise and turn out better after 8-10 years

Rafale as of now is superior but the way u are saying-no

and if we keep on following what u propose then just be ready for another mmrca after 25 years

We are investing hugely in our defence R&D. In current situation we can't compromise. No way we can.

You are forgetting man the technologies we will get from Rafale and FGFA will go into our future stealth fighter AMCA. Can you deny it?

 

[sardar1987]

We are investing hugely in our defence R&D. In current situation we can't compromise. No way we can.

You are forgetting man the technologies we will get from Rafale and FGFA will go into our future stealth fighter AMCA. Can you deny it?

We are getting zilch from rafale
From pakfa we will get some technologies(barring engine and radar) as its a joint venture...................PLS UNDERSTAND THIS

 

[MilSpec]

@Aeronaut @Oscar .... can you please delete non rafale/comparison useless posts from this thread

 

[SRP]

I don't know why rafale is so superior to anything else......its aesa is tiny with only 1000 t/r modules and is not even mature as production started last year.......Its not apg-77 dude! wake up

AND sooner rather than later su-35 will be equipped with no50 aesa,,,,,rafale is fucked then
Regarding spectra do u seriously believe it to be so special that no one else can develop it,,,,common dude



man u deal with me,,,,leave him aside.............answer my points

Yes tiny but more powerful than current AESAs of Russia. We are not going to induct Rafale today. So till the induction starts it will be a mature platform.

You will put your bet in which one: already proven one or one which is still in development whose fate is unknown. How can you say after integration of those equipments they will not ask for extra money?

 

[MilSpec]

We are getting zilch from rafale
From pakfa we will get some technologies(barring engine and radar) as its a joint venture...................PLS UNDERSTAND THIS

Please enlighten me about the details of technology transfer with dassault...

next, Dassault Rafale has beaten all the rest of the a/c's in contention, so what seems to be your problem.

Please do not bring economic nonsense into this, the cost of rafale is miniscule compared to the allocations made for the defense budget.

 

[sardar1987]

We are getting zilch from rafale
From pakfa we will get some technologies(barring engine and radar) as its a joint venture...................PLS UNDERSTAND THIS

Again we are not investing in producing something new but just to produce shells like

1)ins vikrant(gearbox and couple of things barring rest is imported.....even some steel)

2)p-15.........almost nothing indian except steel and maybe sonar and some tot made radars

3)ins arihant............AN EXCEPTION

4)TEJAS........all the imp stuff is non indian,heck even mfd are from jv with some foreign firm

5)dhruv.........from engine to mfd no notable indian contribution

6)arjun..........same story

7)awacs.............all are made by drdo from tot (from iai)

8)ground radar like greenpine........again tot


So dude tell me where is money going?????


Don't take me wrong,we are doing good at the moment but no way i am proud of this scenario.

 

[SRP]

Are u serious.........don't believe bullshit

Best ew suite is in f-35.....end of discussion

And if its so good why bother of fgfa??

hint-its not that good as u are making it to be,,,,certainly not worth 100 million and thats the reason it was rejected everywhere

It topped all tests,but too damn expensive and we are not so rich as to not consider cost

BTW we are not going to buy F22 or 35s. So leave them aside. Now what remains only Rafale.
Are you serious it rejected for not worth of 100million? Did you read that report proided by Alpha1 on start of this thread? I guess not.

 

[sardar1987]

Please enlighten me about the details of technology transfer with dassault...

next, Dassault Rafale has beaten all the rest of the a/c's in contention, so what seems to be your problem.

Please do not bring economic nonsense into this, the cost of rafale is miniscule compared to the allocations made for the defense budget.

I don't even want to talk with an nri on this matter.u cannot understand situation here
Pick up a paper and start reading and then talk,don't be angry young man without brains

I am not saying don't buy stuff..........buy sensibly for time being

BTW we are not going to buy F22 or 35s. So leave them aside. Now what remains only Rafale.
Are you serious it rejected for not worth of 100million? Did you read that report proided by Alpha1 on start of this thread? I guess not.

I read the whole report.....swiss evaluation right

Man why don't u get what i am saying,its a viscious cycle and we need to come out of it
Rafale is very good but current state of rupee is 66 to dollar going to about 70

Now tell me??

 

[SRP]

We are getting zilch from rafale
From pakfa we will get some technologies(barring engine and radar) as its a joint venture...................PLS UNDERSTAND THIS

Ohh come on. Don't be so naive. We will get the tech for our money. We have no choice.

yes we wil get tech from FGFA but not that amount what you think. FGFA will like be the su30mki which have french and israel components. If we use french Rafale some equipments can be used in FGFA also.

 

[MilSpec]

I don't even want to talk with an nri on this matter.u cannot understand situation here
Pick up a paper and start reading and then talk,don't be angry young man without brains

I am not saying don't buy stuff..........buy sensibly for time being

Yo... I have been part of tech transfer teams with Russia for Mig 27M and Su 30MKI early launch containment phase 1 , so keep your attitude in check, I have a pretty good Idea of what Rafale brings to table and your posts are pretty evident you have no clue of what you are saying. As far as brains are concerned I am content with what I have, and am well aware of economic situation in India.

If you want to go back to your contention on dassault providing us "zilch" back up your narrative or refrain from making dumb statements on a public forum.

 

[sardar1987]

Ohh come on. Don't be so naive. We will get the tech for our money. We have no choice.

yes we wil get tech from FGFA but not that amount what you think. FGFA will like be the su30mki which have french and israel components. If we use french Rafale some equipments can be used in FGFA also.

Yaar we get no aesa tech.........if it was true then why is drdo making aesa separately??makes sense?nooooo
They are gonna give us only source codes for integration of weapons of our choice thats it.
And as for fgfa all reports indicate india will use same equipment for pakfa.......no one knows

But know one thing......Neither israel or france has anything comparable to no50 aesa