Iranian Air Defense Systems

[Archdemon]

R U sure?

Radar Basics

Antennas are only a part of radar system, not less important is the processing unit, sowtware.

 

[500]

Antennas are only a part of radar system, not less important is the processing unit, sowtware.

I just replied on his claim (which received 8 thanks), that there were not 3D phased array radars in WW2.

 

[Serpentine]

They are talking non-sense as usual. The problem of Iranian members is that none of them have any knowledge to understand what are they copy pasting. At the best case, it is a low-frequency radar, which is too big, immobile, uses the same frequencies as television, navigation, and communication systems. These system don't have enough accuracy to guide anything with it. these WW2 type of radars, can only roughly say that something is somewhere in the sky.

It's not supposed to be mobile or too accurate according to its primary purpose which is an early warning radar. since it's not economical to use air-based radars (AEW&C) which are more accurate, especially with limited funds as in case of Iran, maybe not for U.S. Now even U.S and Russia are beginning to use OTH early warning radars again, since it's much more cheaper and easier to operate. The U.S, Russia, France, China and Australia are currently using these radars for different purposes.

Australian OTH radar, named Jindalee (It's the most extensive radar system in Australia, operated and maintained by Lockheed Martin)

Russian woodpecker (Duga)

Russian Voronezh OTH radar system:

Voronezh radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Over-the-horizon radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jindalee Operational Radar Network - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Duga-3 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

AN/TPS-71 ROTHR (Relocatable Over-the-Horizon Radar

Lockheed Martin · Jindalee Over-the-Horizon Radar


Also, they are usually high frequncy radars, not LF ones, despite what you are claiming. They operate between 3-30 MHz.

The High Frequency Band (3 to 30 MHz) is a candidate for radar because it enables surface to surface radar to target distances well beyond the horizon. Radar to target ranges of 1000 nmi and more are typical. Use of the 10 to 60 meter wavelengths associated with HF radar requires physically large antennas. Each ROTHR achieves a nominal half degree azimuth angular resolution with a 2.58-km-long linear phased receiving array consisting of 372 twin-monopole elements.

So before accusing other members of not having knowledge, it's always better to study about the case first before trying to simply bash others.

 

[rmi5]

Simply, you are wrong. First of all, USA does not investing big in this type of radars, and it is China and Russia, who are investing in these radars to make them mobile. Second, it has nothing to do with price, and the reason to use these radars is that stealth aircrafts can be roughly detected in these systems. Third, the accuracy of these systems is ultra-terrible in which it can recognize many things in sky as an enemy fighter, and they really cannot give any useful information about the exact position of the enemy fighter or even a good estimate about it, so they are almost uselss. Fifth, did you now get why I said that Iranian members know nothing about the technical details?

It's not supposed to be mobile or too accurate according to its primary purpose which is an early warning radar. since it's not economical to use air-based radars (AEW&C) which are more accurate, especially with limited funds as in case of Iran, maybe not for U.S. Now even U.S and Russia are beginning to use OTH early warning radars again, since it's much more cheaper and easier to operate. The U.S, Russia, France, China and Australia are currently using these radars for different purposes.

Australian OTH radar, named Jindalee (It's the most extensive radar system in Australia, operated and maintained by Lockheed Martin)

Russian woodpecker (Duga)

Russian Voronezh OTH radar system:

Voronezh radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Over-the-horizon radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jindalee Operational Radar Network - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Duga-3 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

AN/TPS-71 ROTHR (Relocatable Over-the-Horizon Radar

Lockheed Martin · Jindalee Over-the-Horizon Radar


Also, they are usually high frequncy radars, not LF ones, despite what you are claiming. They operate between 3-30 MHz.



So before accusing other members of not having knowledge, it's always better to study about the case first before trying to simply bash others.

 

[MTN1917]

R U sure?

Radar Basics

This radar is named Mammut it was phased array radar which had a detection range of 300km and altitude of 8km, Mammut and Wassermann radars were world's first phased array radars.

But during WW2 radars were 2D and they instead used Height finders, so no 3D radar.

They are talking non-sense as usual. The problem of Iranian members is that none of them have any knowledge to understand what are they copy pasting. At the best case, it is a low-frequency radar, which is too big, immobile, uses the same frequencies as television, navigation, and communication systems. These system don't have enough accuracy to guide anything with it. these WW2 type of radars, can only roughly say that something is somewhere in the sky.

What is wrong the a low frequency radar, it will be useful in detecting stealth plane.

This radar will not guide anything, as serpentine said it is an early warning radar, Iran is developing other radar for systems like Bavar-373 and etc.

Iran is working on these kind of radar like Shahab and Thamen, Sepehr OTH radar will have a range of 2500km.

These radars will help Iran detecting an attack against itself sooner, so will be more prepared but these things doesn't matter to you and it appears that you are saddened by the progress of your nation.

 

[500]

This radar is named Mammut it was phased array radar which had a detection range of 300km and altitude of 8km.

But during WW2 radars were 2D and they instead used Height finders, so no 3D radar..

Its 3D phased array radar. Longwave radars are very primitive 70 years old technology.

 

[MTN1917]

Its 3D phased array radar. Longwave radars are very primitive 70 years old technology.

Even if it was 3D and I was wrong, ghadir is much more different and evolved

Concepts like cruise and ballistic missiles and etc all have been introduced by germans in WW2 but that doesn't make them obsolete, Iranian Ghadir is one them

Antenna setting of Ghadir is much more different than these two

Also I forgot to put this in the first post, Ghadir has a 360 degree detection(it is faced 4 sides).

 

[Serpentine]

Simply, you are wrong. First of all, USA does not investing big in this type of radars, and it is China and Russia, who are investing in these radars to make them mobile. Second, it has nothing to do with price, and the reason to use these radars is that stealth aircrafts can be roughly detected in these systems. Third, the accuracy of these systems is ultra-terrible in which it can recognize many things in sky as an enemy fighter, and they really cannot give any useful information about the exact position of the enemy fighter or even a good estimate about it, so they are almost uselss. Fifth, did you now get why I said that Iranian members know nothing about the technical details?

Well that's what I call over-exaggerated self-confidence.
1. After the cold war, U.S has developed and implemented a new OTH radar system named as ROTHR (Relocatable Over-the-Horizon Radar) for monitoring both inland and also 1500 miles off the U.S coast. It doesn't matter if U.S invests big in these radars, what matters is that they are operating them right now and as I mentioned, it's already Australia's most important radar system to monitor Chinese movements. Also U.S has a huge fleet of Awacs and other radar systems which can not be compared to other countries.

2. Not only they can detect conventional planes, but they are also claimed to be capable of detecting stealth aircrafts.

Over-the-horizon radar is a concept increasing radar's effective range over conventional radar. The Australian JORN Jindalee Operational Radar Network can overcome certain stealth characteristics. It is claimed that the HF frequency used and the method of bouncing radar from ionosphere overcomes the stealth characteristics of the F-117A. In other words, stealth aircraft are optimized for defeating much higher-frequency radar from front-on rather than low-frequency radars from above.

Using a modified weather over-the-horizon radar, named Jindalee (an aboriginal term for "bare bones"), they knew that although the stealth bomber did indeed absorb standard aircraft tracking radar (which detect solid objects) with its micro-wave absorbing foam cover, such protection did not extend to the "wake" created as the bomber ploughed through the air. Even at high altitudes where the air is much thinner, there is sufficient turbulence to register on weather radar. After all that is why it was designed -- to check turbulent weather ahead so modern airliners could divert and avoid danger and inconvenience to passengers.

Over-the-Horizon Radar: A Better Way to Watch the Skies · Lockheed Martin



3,4. It seems you are still unfamiliar with basics of an early warning radar system. These radars are not supposed to track objects with interception purposes, but only to to give warning when an intruding ballistic missile/jet fighter/cruise missile comes towards your air space. There are other radar and missile systems to precisely detect the location of intruders and shoot them down.

For years, OTH radars have formed the back bone of territorial defense for the world’s superpowers. The United States currently operates an OTH radar network that can spot target as far as 3,000 kilometers from U.S. shores.

Australia, a potential target of Chinese strategic bombers, has the new Jindalee OTH sensor, with a similar range.

To achieve such incredible performance, OTH radars take advantage of a unique natural phenomenon. Instead of emitting radio waves directly into the target space, OTH radars blast very long wave pulses into the ionosphere.

Waves of certain frequencies bounce back down to the target area, enabling the radar to look at objects from above and identify them even behind ground terrain such as hills and mountains.

In addition to detecting stealth warplanes, OTH radars can also pick out ballistic missiles and even satellites in low orbit. Their long range makes them impervious to small-scale attacks by anti-radiation missiles and jammers.

On the down side, OTH radars are bulky, immobile and imprecise. The distance error in detecting a typical target can be as high as a kilometer. OTH radars also need enormous power sources.

So an accuracy of one kilometer is not bad at all for giving a rough position of any flying object, considering that it's an early warning radar system.

5. It's now obvious who is not having sufficient information considering that electronic is not my specialty and I'm not the one boasting about studying PhD in electronics and hitting it like a hammer in others' head.

 

[raptor22]

Its 3D phased array radar. Longwave radars are very primitive 70 years old technology.

Stealth useless against longwave RADAR

Low-frequency radars may be used to overcome "Stealth" technology

"Low-frequency radars, destined to become the base element of any detection system against LO aircraft and guided missiles, enjoy increasing confidence of military hardware developers, as computing capabilities of modern radars and sophistication of computing algorithms are rapidly growing and allow to identify even the smallest characteristics of aircraft designs using "Stealth" technology.

A recently published article from Aviation Week & Space Technology, based on the interview with a US Navy pilot, who participated in the planning of strikes against Iraqi air defense during the early stages of the operation Desert Storm, indicates that there is "nothing invisible in the radar frequency range below 2GHz" [reverse translation from Russian] and with a well-designed low-frequency radar it is possible to "see even a dragonfly at a great distance" [reverse translation from Russian].

According to another high-ranking US Navy official, following an evaluation of current radar systems, used by the US in combat condition today, it became clear that the approach selected for the development of some of the earliest radar was quite effective. "If it would be possible to filter out the noise, then long-wave, low-frequency radars will be capable of detecting a variety of objects [reverse translation from Russian].

In particular, former defense partners of USSR and China have a considerable quantities of older low-frequency radars still in service. These radars use very basic technology, however their performance can be drastically improved through the application of latest computer microprocessor technology. Well-known modifications of such radars include the Iraqi "Tiger Song" radar, Chinese "Nantsin" radar and a number of older Soviet-made long-range radars.

According to the official spokesman for the US Navy, today these countries invite specialists in the area of microprocessors, who will concentrate their efforts on creating computing algorithms for noise filtration. A possibility appeared of using these modified old radars in networks, maximizing the effectiveness in combat situations. "Now it is known that certain type of radar signals present a threat, even though in the past such types of signals were not considered dangerous. Characteristics of a combat zone have drastically changed" [reverse translation from Russian].

According to the same US Navy representative, " a positive side of such low-frequency radar systems is their large size, making them vulnerable in the area of combat, even though it is extremely difficult to jam such radars. These type of radars are difficult to transport. Attempts to introduce rapid changes in a network of low-frequency radars may damage the network's performance even without the "help" of enemy aviation" [reverse translation from Russian]. A negative side of low-frequency radar networks is that American military planners may not be aware of all components of such air defenses, if they do know the specifics of communications among the individual elements of early detection networks.

However, in industrialized countries low-frequency bands are normally used by a wide variety of communications systems, navigation equipment and television. Intensive use of low-frequency bands by secondary systems makes it difficult to find bandwidths wide enough for military planners to use low-frequency radars.

Soviet-made Bar Lock long-range radar

Soviet-built low-frequency "Bar Lock" and "Spoonrest" radars were used for detecting targets at great distances. These radars operated in the UHF and L-band frequency ranges when it was possible to make use the half-wave resonance effect. This effect can be observed when the length of an aircraft or a cruise missile roughly corresponds to the half of the wavelength, thus creating phase-coherent reflections from the terminal points of the target. Dipole reflector, developed during the Second World War, used this effect to jam radars of that era. Metallic film, cut into strips of the length corresponding to half of the wavelength, resonate with the incoming radar signal, creating an illusion of a large target. Using the resonance effect it is relatively easy to detect even the most advanced LO aircraft, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles.

On the other hand, the width of low-frequency bands makes it difficult to detect a target with sufficient accuracy (in the range of 30-50m), to provide targeting information to SAMs or AAAs. Thus LO aircraft and missiles at the moment continue to enjoy the advantages of stealth."

(my translation of RNTI ITAR-TASS article from 04-05-99)

 

[MTN1917]

An article about Ghadir

Iran Can Now Detect U.S. Stealth Jets at Long Range
New over-the-horizon radar negates stealth advantage
On June 2, an Iranian military Mi-17 helicopter flew over the desert east of Tehran toward one of the most secretive facilities belonging to the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps. The helicopter landed in a remote area near two buildings surrounded by huge wire nets. Guests disembarked.

Brig. Gen. Farzad Ismaeli, commander of Iran’s air-defense force, and several masked IRGC personnel, waited to introduce a new radar system—one that could be able to detect American stealth warplanes at long range.

Ismaeli described the complex of wire nets and buildings as the Ghadirradar, Iran’s first operational over-the-horizon sensor. OTH radars can detect stealthy and small targets at very long ranges, regardless of the target’s altitude.

It’s a capability that promises to dramatically improve Iran’s ability to detect and defend against an aerial attack, potentially altering the military balance of power in the Persian Gulf.

For years, OTH radars have formed the back bone of territorial defense for the world’s superpowers. The United States currently operates an OTH radar network that can spot target as far as 3,000 kilometers from U.S. shores.

Australia, a potential target of Chinese strategic bombers, has the new Jindalee OTH sensor, with a similar range.

To achieve such incredible performance, OTH radars take advantage of a unique natural phenomenon. Instead of emitting radio waves directly into the target space, OTH radars blast very long wave pulses into the ionosphere.

Waves of certain frequencies bounce back down to the target area, enabling the radar to look at objects from above and identify them even behind ground terrain such as hills and mountains.

In addition to detecting stealth warplanes, OTH radars can also pick out ballistic missiles and even satellites in low orbit. Their long range makes them impervious to small-scale attacks by anti-radiation missiles and jammers.

On the down side, OTH radars are bulky, immobile and imprecise. The distance error in detecting a typical target can be as high as a kilometer. OTH radars also need enormous power sources.


Compared to other countries’ OTH radars, Ghadir seems to possess modest performance. Ismaeli claimed it has an 1,100-kilometer range and a maximum detection altitude of 300 kilometers.

Ghadir has four transmitters for 360-degree coverage, but given the huge amount of energy they require, it’s not clear that all four can broadcast at once. The phased-array layout closely resembles the Soviet Duga-3 radar near Chernobyl, perhaps indicating a fairly old-style design.

Ismaeli announced a plan to construct a more powerful OTH radar calledSepehr that could feature a 3,000-kilometer range.

Ghadir is unlikely to survive very long in an intensive war with the United States, but in the case of a limited engagement such as an American attack on Iran’s nuclear facilities, the OTH radar could help Iran organize its defenses.

The sensor would likely recognize an aerial strike package long before it reached Iranian borders, giving people enough time to evacuate essential facilities, alerting air-defense crews and prompting the air force to launch defensive fighters.

Ghadir should be able to cover all of Saudi Arabia. The more powerful Sepehrcould also detect targets inside Israel. Both systems could prove a boon to Iran’s ally Syria.

The United States, Israel and Saudi Arabia have no way of countering the new radar short of a full-scale attack. America has poured much of its military research effort into stealth aircraft, but OTH radars by their nature negate the stealth advantage.

Iran Can Now Detect U.S. Stealth Jets at Long Range — Medium

 

[500]

An article about Ghadir

Iran Can Now Detect U.S. Stealth Jets at Long Range — Medium

First of all this radar cant guide anything because of terrible accuracy.
Secondly its prone to jamming.
Finally I hope u realize that if US decided to attack Iran this radar will be destroyed in first minutes of the attack.

 

[mohsen]

First of all this radar cant guide anything because of terrible accuracy.
Secondly its prone to jamming.
Finally I hope u realize that if US decided to attack Iran this radar will be destroyed in first minutes of the attack.

alongside being full digital and multichannel which gives an anti jamming capability to it, this radar has another feature too and that's very low signal/noise ratio which makes it's detection almost impossible for your anti radiation missiles, first try to reach it and we will see how you can destroy it.
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just a reminder for Iranian, this was the radar which detected the American's predator over Persian gulf.

 

[MTN1917]

First of all this radar cant guide anything because of terrible accuracy.
Secondly its prone to jamming.
Finally I hope u realize that if US decided to attack Iran this radar will be destroyed in first minutes of the attack.

It is an Early warning radar so it doesn't guide anything, it will give us time to ready ourself for an attack

The long range of radar means that it wont be destroyed before it detects an attack.

 

[MOHSENAM]

First of all this radar cant guide anything because of terrible accuracy.
Secondly its prone to jamming.
Finally I hope u realize that if US decided to attack Iran this radar will be destroyed in first minutes of the attack.

Wrong - all of US destroyers will be destroyed.

 

[500]

alongside being full digital and multichannel which gives an anti jamming capability to it, this radar has another feature too and that's very low signal/noise ratio which makes it's detection almost impossible for your anti radiation missiles, first try to reach it and we will see how you can destroy it.
---------
just a reminder for Iranian, this was the radar which detected the American's predator over Persian gulf.

I understand that Iranian super mega radars are not affected by anti radiation missiles. But that huge immobile monster dos not need any anti radiation missile.

It is an Early warning radar so it doesn't guide anything, it will give us time to ready ourself for an attack

The long range of radar means that it wont be destroyed before it detects an attack.

Nice, so it could give to radar crew a warning to run away.