Iranian Air Defense Systems

[Messerschmitt]

Which one is Arman again? Any pictures or just announcements?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1591499486417027073

 

[vizier]

There were rumours about 'Alamolhoda' being a system comparable to what you are describing. It supposedly uses a VHF-band EW radar similar to Russian Nebo-UE and a LR SAM called 'Sadid-630' that is possibly derived from Fateh-class SRBMs and which follows a depressed trajectory. Assuming that this system indeed exists, it most likely uses ARH as guidance and is intended to intercept slow and unagile targets such as bomber, AWACS or SIGINT aircraft at very long ranges. Either this project was given up or is being kept secret.

VHF long range radar can crudely estimate the position of a large aircraft (awacs-b52 etc.). The missile launched needs to be agile enough to maneuver towards the target but it should have its onboard sophisticated radar seeker(active radar seeker like the phoenix missile) for getting close enough for a hit. Something of that sort was developed in cold war initial years against bombers.

CIM-10 Bomarc - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Bomarc B supposed to have a range of about 700 km. It has dual ramjets. Instead of nuclear warhead the new version can carry sidewinder type a2a missiles once it gets close to target it can launch them similar to Karrar interceptor drone with Azaraksh a2a missile. 700km full range or it can be made reusable with 300km-400km radius with nose section and engines recovered by parachute. It can also be made to land with landing skids like me-163 komet if it can glide down that is another possible option.

A modern variant is single ramjet engine D-21. looks sleek and somewhat more stealthy. It has about 5000km range. It is air launched but a variant of it can be developed to be launched from ground by rockets to upper atmosphere where its ramjets take off releasing the rockets.

Lockheed D-21 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[tsunset]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1591499486417027073

I really wonder when Iranian medias will stop comparing their projects and systems to Russian ones, this seems like compulsive

"Better than S-400" "Way better than Bavar which is better than S-300" "Close to the S-500"

Just why? What does S-400 and S-300 have to do with this? Now every medias will describe it as an S-xxx copy or something like they did for Bavar and reinforces the misconception that everything made in Iran are Russian copies

I mean imagine for the buyers, they want an air defense system which is simple, unique, with a good price-efficiency, they will see everywhere "Arman = S-400 copy" "Bavar = S-300 copy" from Iran itself

Totally removes the uniqueness of the system for the marketing and public view

For example i had i nice view of Turkish or South Korean systems, because they look unique (pretty much like Bavar for instance), unique name and precise specs without comparing them with foreign systems, the goal is to incite to buy their systems and make the public (like me) which aren't military experts look at it without imagining that there are foreign parts inside or that this is a copycat of western systems. Even if these systems relies heavily on western technology, the uniqueness for the marketing is respected

With Iran, at each system unveiled, we get totally useless comparisons with foreign systems "3rd Khordad is better than BUK" "B373 performs slightly better than the S-300" "Sayyad-4B has a longer range than S-400 missiles" "The Shahed-129 is equivalent to the MQ-9 Reaper" "X is slightly better than Pantsir S2"

If it was foreign medias or Israeli ones making these comparisons it would be normal and i would say nothing, but there it is the Iranian generals and medias themselves indirectly removing value from their state of art system

 

[Arash1991]

I really wonder when Iranian medias will stop comparing their projects and systems to Russian ones, this seems like compulsive

"Better than S-400" "Way better than Bavar which is better than S-300" "Close to the S-500"

Just why? What does S-400 and S-300 have to do with this? Now every medias will describe it as an S-xxx copy or something like they did for Bavar and reinforces the misconception that everything made in Iran are Russian copies

I mean imagine for the buyers, they want an air defense system which is simple, unique, with a good price-efficiency, they will see everywhere "Arman = S-400 copy" "Bavar = S-300 copy" from Iran itself

Totally removes the uniqueness of the system for the marketing and public view

For example i had i nice view of Turkish or South Korean systems, because they look unique (pretty much like Bavar for instance), unique name and precise specs without comparing them with foreign systems, the goal is to incite to buy their systems and make the public (like me) which aren't military experts look at it without imagining that there are foreign parts inside or that this is a copycat of western systems. Even if these systems relies heavily on western technology, the uniqueness for the marketing is respected

With Iran, at each system unveiled, we get totally useless comparisons with foreign systems "3rd Khordad is better than BUK" "B373 performs slightly better than the S-300" "Sayyad-4B has a longer range than S-400 missiles" "The Shahed-129 is equivalent to the MQ-9 Reaper" "X is slightly better than Pantsir S2"

If it was foreign medias or Israeli ones making these comparisons it would be normal and i would say nothing, but there it is the Iranian generals and medias themselves indirectly removing value from their state of art system

I think this is simply because S 3/4/500 has always been the benchmark on the international market against which one wants to measure oneself. Nobody takes patriots seriously anymore. Secondly, it certainly has something to do with the fact that Russia did not want to deliver the S300 to Iran for a while and Iran said at the time that they would develop something better, at a time when nobody believed in it.

This is perhaps like a younger brother who always had fewer skills in childhood than his older brother. But the years have passed and the smaller brother has become successful, maybe even more successful than the big brother, but inside he still has this thought of having to prove something to the big one. I think this is imprinting and has burned itself deeply into the memory of many. Replacing this can take time.

Some things are human and we can't always judge people. I believe that a self-confidence must first arise. But in this respect, everything is going in a good direction. The Iranian Air Defence only has to prove itself once in front of the whole world and then the self-confidence in the media and in many minds will come. Although Iran's air defenses have already achieved great successes, the one big thing is yet to come.

Good examples of this are Iran's drones and missiles. For a long time, Iranian drones and missiles have been dismissed as propaganda. Then when the first missions in Saudi Arabia or on the IS became known, the experts recognized the potential behind it. Nevertheless, Many media outlets in some way ignore or trivialize this or try to find explanations to badmouth Iranian systems.

The missile strikes against the US military bases in January 2020. The successful drone strikes against Ukraine then brought a drastic turnaround in the respective industries because even the biggest doubters had to acknowledge these successes and capabilities. In air defence, I also see the possibility of such obvious proof, most likely in Syria, if the Iranian air defence network is there and there is an escalation.

Shooting down drones in the past, especially the Global Hawk or the RQ170 hackings are still doubted by some hardcore doubters. The greatest success of Iranian air defense, however, is that Israel has not yet dared to carry out any military action against Iran. Air defense is a bit of a silent hero. As long as nothing happens, she does her job right. It's a defensive weapon.

Let me put it briefly: Someone has to get on their face again. This time from the air defense.

 

[TheImmortal]

Bavar is still going under testing. Production quantity is unknown. You cannot hide battalions that easily from satellites especially since their deployment takes a large area of preparation. Let alone hiding from civilians who spot them on highways being transported. Look at how many videos of S-300 moving around Iran we have seen. How many Bavar videos have you seen posted by civilians?

Meanwhile S-400 and S-500 are proven deployable systems. They are not “magic”, as Ukraine has been able to attack Russian territory several times. But to not take a look at S-500 would be a waste by Iranian engineers on understanding cutting edge Russian air defense tech.

If Russia is willing to sell, Iran should buy. It doesn’t matter which system is “superior”. There will never be a day when Iran says “damn wish I didn’t buy this system”. It bought TOR-M1 which is a Cold War system and still fields them to this day.

 

[tsunset]

I think this is simply because S 3/4/500 has always been the benchmark on the international market against which one wants to measure oneself. Nobody takes patriots seriously anymore. Secondly, it certainly has something to do with the fact that Russia did not want to deliver the S300 to Iran for a while and Iran said at the time that they would develop something better, at a time when nobody believed in it.

This is perhaps like a younger brother who always had fewer skills in childhood than his older brother. But the years have passed and the smaller brother has become successful, maybe even more successful than the big brother, but inside he still has this thought of having to prove something to the big one. I think this is imprinting and has burned itself deeply into the memory of many. Replacing this can take time.

Some things are human and we can't always judge people. I believe that a self-confidence must first arise. But in this respect, everything is going in a good direction. The Iranian Air Defence only has to prove itself once in front of the whole world and then the self-confidence in the media and in many minds will come. Although Iran's air defenses have already achieved great successes, the one big thing is yet to come.

Good examples of this are Iran's drones and missiles. For a long time, Iranian drones and missiles have been dismissed as propaganda. Then when the first missions in Saudi Arabia or on the IS became known, the experts recognized the potential behind it. Nevertheless, Many media outlets in some way ignore or trivialize this or try to find explanations to badmouth Iranian systems.

The missile strikes against the US military bases in January 2020. The successful drone strikes against Ukraine then brought a drastic turnaround in the respective industries because even the biggest doubters had to acknowledge these successes and capabilities. In air defence, I also see the possibility of such obvious proof, most likely in Syria, if the Iranian air defence network is there and there is an escalation.

Shooting down drones in the past, especially the Global Hawk or the RQ170 hackings are still doubted by some hardcore doubters. The greatest success of Iranian air defense, however, is that Israel has not yet dared to carry out any military action against Iran. Air defense is a bit of a silent hero. As long as nothing happens, she does her job right. It's a defensive weapon.

Let me put it briefly: Someone has to get on their face again. This time from the air defense.

They will still find anything to demonize anything, i noticed for the case of Iran that Turkish (don't know why to be honest), Israelis, Indians and basically the western (public) demonizes drones even if they are now combat proven

I would never believe any Ukrainian claim if they are not supported by evidences, specially since Ukrainians loves to take pictures of what they destroyed, including cadavers. I didn't heard early of a Bayraktar strike, but i heard about Geran 2 strikes

Before 2019 the missiles were dubbed as North Korean and Chinese copies, i was believing that too at the time and thought it was photoshopped propaganda, since then it passed from "Threats of Iran missiles are none and they are the equivalent of scuds and easily counterable" to "Iranian missiles poses a huge threat for the whole region and the US may not have the capability to stop swarm attacks"

The same happened to drones until Ukraine, I've saw way more videos of drones hitting targets than videos of Ukrainians posing with destroyed drones, Ukraine claims 80% of shutdown, which is very hard to believe knowing the Ukrainian army behavior, at least they could show us pictures or videos of a pile of destroyed Geran-2? No, what i see is people shooting with AKs from the ground on them until it hits the target

I would call that the "Schrodinger Iran", sometimes the whole Iranian systems and drones and missiles are crap, and sometimes suddenly they are a big threat then becomes crap again etc etc

I would think of bad faith and difficulty to accept from a Westerner or neighbors that a country has made something that works without the help of foreign actors and manpower/engineers while being under 6000 sanctions

People differs but we know how the human works, there will always be something to demonize another country prowess, this is in the human nature specially if they see Iran as their enemy or rivals

I could say as a french that we have way better aircrafts than the whole Asia region and possess nuclear submarines each loaded with 12 ICBMs of 12000km of range with MiRV thermonuclear warheads as well as all the technology to make helicopters, fighters and airliners without the help of the United States and heavy lifting rockets, but i simply let that apart, I've saw a lot of Americans saying that what Iran is doing has been made decades ago already, but these are bad faith arguments for the sole purpose of demonizing another country because of their deep hatred of Iran

Recently i would like to see the air defense making other prowess such as the US drone shutdown, it would be fun to study the reactions of these same people and see if the Schrodinger Iran is real or not

 

[Stryker1982]

Bavar is still going under testing. Production quantity is unknown. You cannot hide battalions that easily from satellites especially since their deployment takes a large area of preparation. Let alone hiding from civilians who spot them on highways being transported. Look at how many videos of S-300 moving around Iran we have seen. How many Bavar videos have you seen posted by civilians?

Meanwhile S-400 and S-500 are proven deployable systems. They are not “magic”, as Ukraine has been able to attack Russian territory several times. But to not take a look at S-500 would be a waste by Iranian engineers on understanding cutting edge Russian air defense tech.

If Russia is willing to sell, Iran should buy. It doesn’t matter which system is “superior”. There will never be a day when Iran says “damn wish I didn’t buy this system”. It bought TOR-M1 which is a Cold War system and still fields them to this day.

Indeed, theirs a difference between developing a system and deploying a system in numbers.

Bavar-373 if fully develop, doesn't appear to be widely deployed, while S-400/500 are already produced in numbers and ready to be fielded. This is the difference. Does IRI-AD want to wait a some more years for production and deployment or does it want instant deployment as a stop gap till production capability is developed.

 

[Stryker1982]

it may be that iran does not need an S-400 or S-500. (I think so too) but it wouldn't be counterproductive to buy a few systems to take a closer look at these things

it may be that iran does not need an S-400 or S-500. (I think so too) but it wouldn't be counterproductive to buy a few systems to take a closer look at these things.
another thing: do you really think that iran can develop a system to intercept hypersonic missiles at this point in time? that would be a huge leap forward. I used to think these things were unstoppable (at least for the next 10 or 20 years). Conversely, that must mean that the enemy would theoretically be able to do this, and that would in turn call Iran's non-hypersonic missile arsenal into question.

As a stop gap, I think it might be important to acquire some battalions of S-400s for its ABM capability. The next 5 years will be deceive. It is under my impression war will be on the horizon as military pressure on Israel will continue to become unbearable to the point of no return.

If their is no nuclear deal, Iran will basically have a large stockpile of near 90% enriched uranium as well. This is not even considered "latent capability" this is basically a kin to near-immediate readiness. I don't think this will be brushed off so easily. Perhaps even less than 5 years we will have the conflict (either that, a grand deal or submission) and S-400s will be a useful & immediate acquisition. The decision to not get a S-400 for now could change on a dime.

 

[Stryker1982]

I could say as a french that we have way better aircrafts than the whole Asia region and possess nuclear submarines each loaded with 12 ICBMs of 12000km of range with MiRV thermonuclear warheads as well as all the technology to make helicopters, fighters and airliners without the help of the United States and heavy lifting rockets, but i simply let that apart, I've saw a lot of Americans saying that what Iran is doing has been made decades ago already, but these are bad faith arguments for the sole purpose of demonizing another country because of their deep hatred of Iran

While partially true. These systems are considered "forbidden" systems that only a select few countries (only in the west) are allowed to have. Nations of the east by force developed them. This is what makes it painful for them. They want the club to be small.

Of course, their is also deep lack of knowledge, like the fact that a tactical ballistic missile of 1400km range for example did not exist decades ago due to missile control treaties. This is also painful for them since these systems can do alot of damage to them. Not even Russia has these systems, which was a mistake countries like China and Iran did not make.

 

[HGV]

Not true, while I would say Iran should go for S-500 vs S-400 considering Iran already has that level of tech domestically. The War in Ukraine (for Ukraine) has shown there is ALWAYS a need for more air defense systems.

The original S-300 order by Iran was insufficient considering the size of Iran and the fact that in war time its opponent (Israel or US) will be hunting these systems.

Iran should absolutely place another good size order for S-500 (or S-400 if Russia refuses). This has nothing to do with Bavar 373/domestic production, and everything to do with making your air defense network one of the densest on the planet.

If "Arman" is close to mass production then spending billions on s-400 would not be cost-effective, given for the same amount of money far more upgraded Bavar-373 and Arman launchers could be produced. The production rate seems slow but a s-400 delivery would also take many years to complete, so that is another factor in favour of prioritising production and operation of upgraded Bavar-373 and Arman instead of s-400.

 

[Mr Iran Eye]

If a more knowledgeable general than you says the S-400 isn't needed then they have the alternative. I'm sure there are already a few systems built and more to come. So they don't need the S-400 and that's fine.

 

[Stryker1982]

If a more knowledgeable general than you says the S-400 isn't needed then they have the alternative. I'm sure there are already a few systems built and more to come. So they don't need the S-400 and that's fine.

No one ever complained about having too many air defense systems.

If "Arman" is close to mass production then spending billions on s-400 would not be cost-effective, given for the same amount of money far more upgraded Bavar-373 and Arman launchers could be produced. The production rate seems slow but a s-400 delivery would also take many years to complete, so that is another factor in favour of prioritising production and operation of upgraded Bavar-373 and Arman instead of s-400.

I wonder, is Arman supposed to be a IRGC project or a ministry of defense project like the Bavar-373.

If it is a IRGC project, it's ability to be sent into production would be far more faster than Bavar-373 and produced in larger numbers.

 

[Hack-Hook]

I think the S-300PMU2's Iran received is somewhere between 4 - 6 battalions.

Indeed, no one has ever complained about having TOO many air defences. Loosing the air security is equal to death in modern era. The interoperability between the Su-35's and S-400's/S-500's makes it very appetizing to get both to strengthen the network.

Of course if they are going fully steam for Bavar-373, then by all means rather the funds be spent in job creation then go outside. In any case, ABM capability is required.


Which one is Arman again? Any pictures or just announcements?

Upgraded version of Bavar 373 being developed. It will have anti missile capabilitiesandlonger range

 

[TheImmortal]

Upgraded version of Bavar 373 being developed. It will have anti missile capabilitiesandlonger range

Upgraded version of a system that hasn’t even been mass produced yet. You realize that means Bavar is in r&d still? A decade in development maybe longer.

A lot of you don’t understand how difficult it is to mass produce radars and air defense systems. There is a reason why even NATO countries keep systems that are way past their prime. Look at US military with 700B military budget doesn’t have enough THAAD or Patriot missiles and has to take them from Saudi Arabia or Middle East and move them around whenever new threats arise.

So what makes you think Iran with its 15B budget has enough air defense systems built?

Like I said, big mistake if Iran passes on S-400/S-500. I don’t care what some IRGC general says for domestic consumption reasons.

Once a IRGC general also said “we don’t need T-90 we will develop our own 5+ years ago”. Meanwhile how many Karrar have you seen built in last few years? 5? 10? 20?

 

[aryobarzan]

Iranian Defence Chief Explains Why His Country Doesn’t Needs Russian S-400 Missile Systems​

Military Watch Magazine Editorial Staff
March-7th-2023

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Iranian Defence Chief Explains Why His Country Doesn’t Needs Russian S-400 Missile Systems

Defence Minister Brigadier General Mohammad Reza Ashtiani on March 6 dismissed reports of plans for the country to acquire Russian S-400 air defence systems, with

militarywatchmagazine.com