Iranian Air Defense Systems

[Messerschmitt]

I would like to ask a hypothetical question:

would it be possible to convert a quasi-ballistic missile or a hypersonic missile or some kind of ballistic missile that can definitely be controlled and is very fast into a super long-range air defense system?
The idea behind this would be to track a target, e.g. a bomber or a fighter jet in a distance of 1500km to 2000 km with an OTH radar or satellite and then let the missile or hypersonic missile shoot at the position. The missile would then have its own powerful active radar system that once in range could then detect and lock on to the target and track it, and once the enemy initiates jamming action the radar would automatically switch to passive mode and track the jammer.
(Similar to the phenix missile).

There are 2 cases here from my point of view:
1.) Optimal case: Hypersonic or quasi-ballistic missile is in communication with the radar almost during the whole flight and can be steered by the stationary radar or by the satellite constantly in the direction of the target because it delivers trajectory correction data which allow the missile to correct in the direction of the target with an accuracy of a few hundred meters or a few kilometers. Once in range of the missile's own radar, the missile will then switch to the target by its own tracking radar.

2) Hardship case: Rocket has no contact with the ground station after launch. In this case the missile would have to remember the last position and the direction of the target.. A hypersonic missile would need about 6 to 7 minutes for 1500km range. A target flying at 2000kmh would then be a maximum of 250km away from its original location. It would still with worst setup still in radar detection range of the Hypersonic missile when the Hypersonic Missile arrives close to the target.

Here there are at least 3 conditions wich came in my mind wich must be fulfilled now:

1. the target must be in the radar cone of the active rocket radar after a certain flight phase.
2. the missile must still be maneuverable enough to hit the target.
3. the target must be distinguishable and identifiable among many other targets (potentially including civilian traffic).

I have made the following scenario calculation:
Assumption: Hypersonic missile:
Speed 15.000 km/h
Altitude FL: 10.000km
Altitude HR: 30.000km
Takes about 6 to 7 minutes for 1500km (Tehran - Tel Aviv)

The hypersonic missile radar:
The radar of the hypersonic missile can be designed very powerful. The hypersonic rocket will draw the electrical energy for this from the engine, which should provide more than enough energy.
In my opinion, the radar can also be set significantly higher in terms of its electrical performance than a comparable radar of a fighter jet. It can be supplied with so much energy that components would burn out after only e.g. 20 minutes. Basically, the radar only has to stay alive for a maximum of 8 or 10 minutes. For this reason, you can certainly be very generous with the dimensioning of the radar. In this way, ranges of 400km or 300km would certainly be feasible.

Now to the Scenario:
From Tehran, a hypersonic air defense missile (callsign: HR) is launched to intercept a plane flying over Tel Aviv. HR has a own radar with a detection range of 400 km and a 70-degree opening angle. Lockon Range is 200km.The radar constantly emits a cone-shaped signal that follows HR's flight path and can detect any object within its range.

The target, a Zionist Fighterplane callsign: FL, is flying at a speed of 2,000 km/h and an altitude of 10 km in a northwesterly direction from over Tel Aviv, which makes it almost 90 degree angle to HR's flight path. the greatest probability for FL to escape the radar beam cone before FL is within the radar beam area.

View attachment 918247
Red arrow is FL`s flight path in comparision to the radar beam angle of HR. It is probably the best position for FL to flee from radar beam.

FL is first detected by HR's radar after 4 minutes and 18 seconds from HR's launch, during which time FL had traveled a distance of 133.32 km from his original location. At this point, HR had traveled a distance of 1,125 km towards Tel Aviv.

To intercept FL, HR needs to make a turn with a radius of 300 km. If HR makes this turn at its maximum speed of 15,000 km/h, it would need to endure a force of 4.45 G. (8 tonnes HR weight). When in Range Radar can lock on target and go for the last hunt.

Assuming that the missile's guidance system is accurate and that FL's course and speed do not change, HR will reach FL's position and intercept it after round about 7 minutes from the launch. By that time, FL would have traveled a total distance of 210 km from its starting point.

This scenario highlights the strategic advantage of hypersonic air defense missiles in intercepting fast-moving targets. However, it also underscores the importance of maintaining a constantly evolving defense strategy that can adapt to changing threats and technologies.

It would be much easier to Intercept a target flying with Mach 0.98.
Most of the Planes, even fighter aircraft never fly with afterburner.

This scenario was calculated and simulated, The Speed, altidude and calculations should be correct. If somebody interested PN me I will send calculations.

With this calculation we theoretically proofed that:
1. the target must be in the radar cone of the active rocket radar after a certain flight phase.
Even if Target is detected one single time and an not be tracked after Hypersonic Air defence missile launch, when the Hypersonic missile arrives position, the target will still be in radar cone range

2. the missile must still be maneuverable enough to hit the target.
Yes: with a weight of 8 tonnes (Kinshal missile is about 7 tonnes) missile will pull maximum 5 G for a 300km turn radius. Hypersonic missiles can generally pull up to 15 G constiniously.

3. the target must be distinguishable and identifiable among many other targets (potentially including civilian traffic)
No specific solution Maybe combination with AI possible?

Any Ideas on that?

There were rumours about 'Alamolhoda' being a system comparable to what you are describing. It supposedly uses a VHF-band EW radar similar to Russian Nebo-UE and a LR SAM called 'Sadid-630' that is possibly derived from Fateh-class SRBMs and which follows a depressed trajectory. Assuming that this system indeed exists, it most likely uses ARH as guidance and is intended to intercept slow and unagile targets such as bomber, AWACS or SIGINT aircraft at very long ranges. Either this project was given up or is being kept secret.

 

[Stryker1982]

There were rumours about 'Alamolhoda' being a system comparable to what you are describing. It supposedly uses a VHF-band EW radar similar to Russian Nebo-UE and a LR SAM called 'Sadid-630' that is possibly derived from Fateh-class SRBMs and which follows a depressed trajectory. Assuming that this system indeed exists, it most likely uses ARH as guidance and is intended to intercept slow and unagile targets such as bomber, AWACS or SIGINT aircraft at very long ranges. Either this project was given up or is being kept secret.

It would most definetly be pursed and probably already completed, but the ranges that Arash has suggested is simply not possible or feasible. It can probably be used at around 400km and less. Purpose of this unit is clear, which is to impose risk on Tankers & AWACS in Iraq & SA during a major operation.

Ideally your missile would arrive in the general area to being its search and hope that the aircraft is still there. Hence the main problem is they'd simply left the search area before the missile gets there on time to hone in. This type of system can only really be used for big *** aircraft with very low maneuverability. Can't use it for general fighter craft.

The further ranges you want to do this, the higher the cost and lesser chances of success.

 

[Hack-Hook]

As i had already predicted, F-14s of IRIAF played a vital role in air defense exercise. The best airborne radar to watch incoming aerial threats e.g. cruise missiles.

View attachment 918333

View attachment 918334

hunting cruise missile always was one of the strength of f-14.

 

[Muhammed45]

hunting cruise missile always was one of the strength of f-14.

Yeah, as a beginner in learning OSINT when it comes to airforce, i feel proud of my own so called prediction of the obvious

Btw, its radar doesn't have the weakness of land based radars, detecting from above, the terrain cannot be of interrupting factors to F14's radar.

 

[Stryker1982]

Yeah, as a beginner in learning OSINT when it comes to airforce, i feel proud of my own so called prediction of the obvious

Btw, its radar doesn't have the weakness of land based radars, detecting from above, the terrain cannot be of interrupting factors to F14's radar.

Hence many of us have said on this forum that interceptors from Russia are a must have, and ideally our own supply chain can be secured with our own aircraft.

In any case, a need for large interceptor fleet that cannot be replaced with missiles and AD.

 

[Flotilla]

There were rumours about 'Alamolhoda' being a system comparable to what you are describing. It supposedly uses a VHF-band EW radar similar to Russian Nebo-UE and a LR SAM called 'Sadid-630' that is possibly derived from Fateh-class SRBMs and which follows a depressed trajectory. Assuming that this system indeed exists, it most likely uses ARH as guidance and is intended to intercept slow and unagile targets such as bomber, AWACS or SIGINT aircraft at very long ranges. Either this project was given up or is being kept secret.

ARH guidance have limitations. Stealth aircraft with EW can jamm this missiles, even some aircraft are being developing decoys emitters for deceive this kind of guidance systems. IMHO the future pass for combining SARH with IR like SMII block III. It is a question of adding a small IR seeker in the missile and combine the signals received with the radar seeker and processing ability to cross it with IR footprint of the B21 and F35/A/B/C that for sure are being prepared to bomb Iran.

And I think Iran has enough technology for such leap. IR guidance combined with SARH and IA for discrimating real targets from UAV decoys / jammers / loyal airwing (which have been designed to be used as a sacrificable or shield aircraft.

 

[glablo]

Two opposing views on the RQ-4 shoot-down.
Was there an airspace violation, and at what altitude was the RQ-4 flying?
This is a video of the shoot down. The light above is a fireball from the missile.

Here is the video taken from P-8, which the West claims was taken from the P-8.

If the figures in this video are correct, the RQ-4 was flying at an altitude of at least 4000 meters or less.
In that case, the 4000m altitude at 70km away, the point where the plane was shot down, would be at an elevation angle of 3.3 degrees, which would make the plane appear almost level with the horizon!
On the other hand, at an altitude of 15,000 meters, the elevation angle is 12.2 degrees.
In the first image, the camera is relatively zoomed out, and it is hard to believe that the elevation angle is 3.3 degrees.
I would adopt the theory that the RQ-4 was not shot down at low altitude, as some have suggested, but at high altitude.

 

[Stryker1982]

In the first image, the camera is relatively zoomed out, and it is hard to believe that the elevation angle is 3.3 degrees.

Indeed, hard to imagine it would be so low.

 

[mohsen]

Two opposing views on the RQ-4 shoot-down.
Was there an airspace violation, and at what altitude was the RQ-4 flying?
This is a video of the shoot down. The light above is a fireball from the missile.

Here is the video taken from P-8, which the West claims was taken from the P-8.

If the figures in this video are correct, the RQ-4 was flying at an altitude of at least 4000 meters or less.
In that case, the 4000m altitude at 70km away, the point where the plane was shot down, would be at an elevation angle of 3.3 degrees, which would make the plane appear almost level with the horizon!
On the other hand, at an altitude of 15,000 meters, the elevation angle is 12.2 degrees.
In the first image, the camera is relatively zoomed out, and it is hard to believe that the elevation angle is 3.3 degrees.
I would adopt the theory that the RQ-4 was not shot down at low altitude, as some have suggested, but at high altitude.

40000ft flight, 45000ft missile launch (90km away), 51000ft missile impact (75km away).

It was flying at our DELTA zone without introducing itself or responding to air defense warnings.

 

[HGV]

It is really strange that Iranian officials insist Bavar-373 is in operation and yet all evidence suggests it is not. They presumably produced enough launchers for one battalion, so why would that not be in operation at least until they can produce more? It is also frustrating there are no clear indicators for how many battalions etc they plan to order/produce or where. Currently the limited s-300 battalions are only around Tehran and Isfahan.

 

[sahureka2]

"No Need for S-400: Iranian Defense Minister"
https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2023/03/06/2863572/no-need-for-s-400-iranian-defense-minister

 

[TheImmortal]

"No Need for S-400: Iranian Defense Minister"
https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2023/03/06/2863572/no-need-for-s-400-iranian-defense-minister

Not true, while I would say Iran should go for S-500 vs S-400 considering Iran already has that level of tech domestically. The War in Ukraine (for Ukraine) has shown there is ALWAYS a need for more air defense systems.

The original S-300 order by Iran was insufficient considering the size of Iran and the fact that in war time its opponent (Israel or US) will be hunting these systems.

Iran should absolutely place another good size order for S-500 (or S-400 if Russia refuses). This has nothing to do with Bavar 373/domestic production, and everything to do with making your air defense network one of the densest on the planet.

 

[Mr Iran Eye]

"No Need for S-400: Iranian Defense Minister"
https://www.tasnimnews.com/en/news/2023/03/06/2863572/no-need-for-s-400-iranian-defense-minister

Exactly ! Iran has S-300 PMU II +, Talaash 3, Khordad 15, Bavar 313, and even the S-200 much improved. In addition to all the other air defense systems of the country then Iran does not need S-400.

Rest assured that Arman will be powerful and in my opinion he will be able to intercept hypersonic missiles. That remains to be seen but that's the logic of things

 

[Stryker1982]

Not true, while I would say Iran should go for S-500 vs S-400 considering Iran already has that level of tech domestically. The War in Ukraine (for Ukraine) has shown there is ALWAYS a need for more air defense systems.

The original S-300 order by Iran was insufficient considering the size of Iran and the fact that in war time its opponent (Israel or US) will be hunting these systems.

Iran should absolutely place another good size order for S-500 (or S-400 if Russia refuses). This has nothing to do with Bavar 373/domestic production, and everything to do with making your air defense network one of the densest on the planet.

I think the S-300PMU2's Iran received is somewhere between 4 - 6 battalions.

Indeed, no one has ever complained about having TOO many air defences. Loosing the air security is equal to death in modern era. The interoperability between the Su-35's and S-400's/S-500's makes it very appetizing to get both to strengthen the network.

Of course if they are going fully steam for Bavar-373, then by all means rather the funds be spent in job creation then go outside. In any case, ABM capability is required.

Rest assured that Arman will be powerful and in my opinion he will be able to intercept hypersonic missiles. That remains to be seen but that's the logic of things

Which one is Arman again? Any pictures or just announcements?

 

[Arash1991]

it may be that iran does not need an S-400 or S-500. (I think so too) but it wouldn't be counterproductive to buy a few systems to take a closer look at these things

Exactly ! Iran has S-300 PMU II +, Talaash 3, Khordad 15, Bavar 313, and even the S-200 much improved. In addition to all the other air defense systems of the country then Iran does not need S-400.

Rest assured that Arman will be powerful and in my opinion he will be able to intercept hypersonic missiles. That remains to be seen but that's the logic of things

it may be that iran does not need an S-400 or S-500. (I think so too) but it wouldn't be counterproductive to buy a few systems to take a closer look at these things.
another thing: do you really think that iran can develop a system to intercept hypersonic missiles at this point in time? that would be a huge leap forward. I used to think these things were unstoppable (at least for the next 10 or 20 years). Conversely, that must mean that the enemy would theoretically be able to do this, and that would in turn call Iran's non-hypersonic missile arsenal into question.