Iran before Khomeini

[SQ8]

Since the 19th century. Baha'ism and Babism are the heritage of those fake preachers actually.

One of the heritage. Plenty more in the subcontinent and within mainstream Sunni & Shia as well

 

[QWECXZ]

One of the heritage. Plenty more in the subcontinent and within mainstream Sunni & Shia as well

Yes, but some of the Shiite-Sunni problems also date back to the 16th century long before the British started interfering in our region.
The British just leveraged existing differences to their advantage. The same old "divide and conquer" tactic. And then they left the region after redrawing the borders in a way that would lead to perpetual wars and animosity between neighbors.

 

[SQ8]

Yes, but some of the Shiite-Sunni problems also date back to the 16th century long before the British started interfering in our region.
The British just leveraged existing differences to their advantage. The same old "divide and conquer" tactic. And then they left the region after redrawing the borders in a way that would lead to perpetual wars and animosity between neighbors.

Oh I am not referring to the existing political divide(I remember a Syrian joking about us being idiots fighting over their arab/levant tribal issue) which was IMO fuelled by the rise of the Safavids vs Arab Dynasties.
I am talking about more extreme narratives not just on sectarianism but also in general extremist views too. There has to be a reason why the British tolerate flat out terrorist and sectarian terror preachers on their soil.

 

[dBSPL]

Iran is always among the top 3-4 in terms of the number of foreigners residing in Turkey. In the 2019-2020 period the number of Iranians who applied for a residence were 92,718 and the majority of them are women. Also the first address of Iranian asylum seekers are always Turkey. As has been clearly stated in previous reports by Human Rights Watch, HRW, this trend is constantly increasing. We are not bothered by it. But it is very sad that Turkey is being vilified here, while Iranians are coming to Turkey in droves.

 

[JackTheRipper]

You insulted another member's sister when he hadn't insulted you.
You talk like you're cosmopolitan and all, but you don't know that butt-hurt is not on the same order of insulting a person's family.
Only lowest kind of scum would insult the family of another person.

you are saying, butt-hurt is not abusive slur ?

then, why are you butt-hurt? when i was insulting someone, not you?

 

[Meengla]

In all 3 countries (Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan) the Islamization exploded because of the tyrannic policies of the other side, that is drastic economic policies by Bhutto, Shah's suppression of religion and poor economy, bloody communists in Afghanistan. Turkey on a lesser level the same case, Erdogan's party became popular when kemalists were banning hijab and economy was on a nose dive.

You could certainly say that about Iran. Afghanistan was always very rigidly conservative, barring a tiny portion of urban elite who went for communism in a hurried march which was uncalled for in that society. In case of Turkey, it was the probably the corruption of the ruling parties before Erdogan more than suppression of religion which led to Erdogan; but Erdogan is not an extremist like those in Iran or what followed in Pakistan under Zia or what followed in Afghanistan under the Taliban. BTW, Bhutto had the national mandate for 'socialism'. It was fakery, for sure, but even that 'socialism' was not real in practice. While 'nationalization' was done in large sectors but the there was still tons of private enterprises in Pakistan. Under Bhutto, in his late years, trying to calm the Mullahs, some cosmetic 'Islamization' was introduced (banning alcohol, gambling...) but never the path of Pakistan changed so drastically as when Zia cynically used 'Islam' to prolong his rule and joined the war against the Soviets. The Pakistan of 1989 was much different from the Pakistan of 1979.

Back to topic: I think as an Iranian says above, there are certainly gains been made since 1979 despite heavy sanctions and even not so covert hostile actions against Iran. I think if Iran were to come out of sanctions and join the global community then Iran has perhaps the best potential in the larger Middle East region for the dominant Muslim economic power. They have the oil and the young educated population. And they don't have an immediately major hostile neighborhood.

 

[BHAN85]

"Modern" has a positive sense when you talk about technology or something like that.

But when westerners talk about "Modern" in a cultural point of view, hold tight, they in fact meant decadence.

Onlyfans accounts are a "modern" trending between young western women.

 

[mingle]

It's all Bull shit propaganda nothing more elites in Tehran were modern but rest of country were conservative just like we see kabul pics before Russian war

 

[Menace2Society]

"Modern" has a positive sense when you talk about technology or something like that.

But when westerners talk about "Modern" in a cultural point of view, hold tight, they in fact meant decadence.

Onlyfans accounts are a "modern" trending between young western women.

The benefits outweigh the poor decisions of a few.

 

[BHAN85]

The benefits outweigh the poor decisions of a few.

It has no sense talk about modernity in a cultural/social point of view.

Humans exists since thousands years ago, if they claim invented some cultural "modern" behavior, it's false, it's not modern, it's old, Sodoma and Gomorrah is not modern, it's just a thing too old, a kind of society that can survive many years.

"Modern" has sense when u talk about science or technology, because today it exists things in these fields that didn't exists before.

 

[Indos]

Ayatollah Khomeini is much wiser than most politicians in history. I would compare Ayatollah Khomeini with Stalin, or Chairman Mao, or Peter the Great or

The world politics is quite simple. Rule or ruled. Shah chose later, Ayatollah Khomeini chose former.

Some countries have choice to be kind of neutral during Cold War, such as India, Indonesia, far away from power center, far away from 2 superpowers back then.

While countries like Iran, China was sandwiched by 2 superpowers. Both are ancient countries, the oldest civilizations, both has huge potentials.

So what would you do to Iran and China if you were US or Soviet back in Cold War?

Simple, control or destroy if they can't be controlled.

British and US work together and installed a proxy successfully, who is Shah. Shah was overthrown by the Mullah.

See what had British and US done on Iran? Destroy her. Iran-Iraq war is proxy war, it's between the West and Soviet camp.
===============

US once was ally of China during WW2. When Communist Party won the civil war, US proxy was driven to Taiwan, see what US did to China? Destroy her.

===============

Iranians can be wealthy under Shah, especially some Iranians. But most likely no future as a country.

Indonesia is not neutral during cold war, it is already a known fact by knowleadgeable people. Indonesia killed many communist, ban the communist party, invade East Timor in which at that time Fretilin has left ideology, send our special forces to Malaysia helping them fight the communist insurgency. We also cut diplomatic relationship to Communist China and send weapon to Afghanistan to figh USSR

 

[Menace2Society]

It has no sense talk about modernity in a cultural/social point of view.

Humans exists since thousands years ago, if they claim invented some cultural "modern" behavior, it's false, it's not modern, it's old, Sodoma and Gomorrah is not modern, it's just a thing too old, a kind of society that can survive many years.

"Modern" has sense when u talk about science or technology, because today it exists things in these fields that didn't exists before.

Freedom of choice is priceless. If some wish to abuse it then that's on them. All the females I have met have been work colleagues and friends, not everyone has to become a prostitute

You want to make a truly stable state? Give everyone the freedom of choice to stay or leave and see what they say. That's the test, lets see who complains about life in a western country then.

 

[Stranagor]

Came across this film which has a lot of rare and valuable footage of Iran prior to the Islamic Revolution. It made me think about how Iran's trajectory would've been so different if the Islamic Revolution had not occurred. The positives for Iran would be that today it would be very integrated with the global economy and quite wealthy and prosperous. Will likely be a huge center of cultural influence in the Middle East and even worldwide, at least equaling the influence of certain larger European countries. Iran would be quite westernized and modern in outlook. However, obviously the downside is that Iran would have its sovereignty extremely curtailed and held under the thumb of the United States.

So that's the price it currently pays for its independence. What do you think would've been better for Iran?

I think the revolution was originally a broad-based movement. After the revolution, however, there was a brutal purge, and it lost the progressive elements that political left normally brings about. If the broad-based structure had been preserved post-revolution, US/West enmity would still continue, but Iran would have a broader social basis to start anew. Yet, revolution was quickly detoriorated and itself became rigid and archaic in many ways.

 

[BHAN85]

Freedom of choice is priceless. If some wish to abuse it then that's on them. All the females I have met have been work colleagues and friends, not everyone has to become a prostitute

You want to make a truly stable state? Give everyone the freedom of choice to stay or leave and see what they say. That's the test, lets see who complains about life in a western country then.

The problem with social/cultural trendings is that we can't see longterm consequences easily.

"Freedom" is ok in a short-term.

Well, we'll see in few decades how grow old all these free western people and how ended.

We can see something right now, free Spanish young people in the 1980's took drugs like Heroin and they died.

Drugs are a good thing in a short-term, but kill u in a long-term.

Easy sex is a good thing in a short-term, but make unstructured families in a long-term.

And so on.

 

[tower9]

I think the revolution was originally a broad-based movement. After the revolution, however, there was a brutal purge, and it lost the progressive elements that political left normally brings about. If the broad-based structure had been preserved post-revolution, US/West enmity would still continue, but Iran would have a broader social basis to start anew. Yet, revolution was quickly detoriorated and itself became rigid and archaic in many ways.

Agreed. Iran needs some major reforms. I don’t think the govt should be overthrown as that would cause great suffering but it needs major reforms like how Deng changed the PRC.