Interesting political poll

[B.K.N]

Quite possible, I wouldn't be surprised if "Rana" Sanaullah family was actually Marasi or Mochi family back in east punjab, it happens a lot than what people tend to acknowledge on the internet.

Shaikh Rasheed was once saying at some TV show Rana sanaullah shakal say rajput lagta ha rajput aisay hotay hain

 

[Zibago]

This is internet BS, every kashmiri is called "Butt" in central punjab, here being "Butt" only means Kashmiri descent, even kammi migrants from kashmir also pass as "Butt" in central punjab. It is a common culture in punjab with kammis to change their caste names when they move out of their old areas because in new areas no one knows what they were back in their old area and can claim whatever BS they want. I know countless Nai "Sandhu", "cheema", "ghummans" in my area, you don't understand the complexities of bradarism in pre-modern times punjab. So don't believe the BS you read on "wikipedia" or other sh1tty "online sources".

BTW no one in Gujranwala considers any "Sheikh" as Kashmiri Butt, Sheikh are totally different bradari, it doesn't matter whether they came from kashmir, afghanistan or iran.

Later on every Kashmiri was called butt after migrating to Punjab but origin of Butt is Bhat of Kashmir
When did I say people consider Sheikh as Butts?
And no all Kashmiris are not called Butts
Lones and Dars are a thing

People just assume that people belonging to various Kashmiri biradaris tend to be pmln supporters

Lol right now I am sitting in rural Sialkot in an area dominated by Bajwas and Gujjars
But ok I will play along


Um no Sheikh is a Kashmiri title for converts @krash
Btw offtopic get back to the poll

Shaikh Rasheed was once saying at some TV show Rana sanaullah shakal say rajput lagta ha rajput aisay hotay hain

Shakal sey to rana lagta hy
Biradri ka perfect representative ht

This is internet BS, every kashmiri is called "Butt" in central punjab, here being "Butt" only means Kashmiri descent, even kammi migrants from kashmir also pass as "Butt" in central punjab. It is a common culture in punjab with kammis to change their caste names when they move out of their old areas because in new areas no one knows what they were back in their old area and can claim whatever BS they want. I know countless Nai "Sandhu", "cheema", "ghummans" in my area, you don't understand the complexities of bradarism in pre-modern times punjab. So don't believe the BS you read on "wikipedia" or other sh1tty "online sources".

BTW no one in Gujranwala considers any "Sheikh" as Kashmiri Butt, Sheikh are totally different bradari, it doesn't matter whether they came from kashmir, afghanistan or iran.

Kammis who change biradris nirmally just go with Syed,Qureshi or other middle eastern biradri they dont just adopt south asian biradri

I know a family of chohra background who now pass off as Gillani Syeds in another district

 

[Crusher]

Shaikh Rasheed was once saying at some TV show Rana sanaullah shakal say rajput lagta ha rajput aisay hotay hain

Below is a well researched column published in tribune english newspaper in 2012 by an author who researched a lot of bradari/caste related issues in punjab, just read the bold parts to find out that how easy it was even 100 years ago to "change" the bradari/caste after migrantion to another area.
Castes in Punjab
By Ajmal Kamal
Published: April 27, 2012
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The writer edits a quarterly Urdu literary journal Aaj from Karachi, runs a bookshop and City Press, a small publishing house ajmal.kamal@tribune.com.pk

Before I come to the subject of sheer prejudice and violence woven into the fabric of our languages — Urdu and others — I would like to make a small but important clarification. The use of ‘North India’ and ‘northern subcontinent’ as interchangeable terms in the pre-Partition context in my previous columns seems to have led some readers to conclude that the geographical area defined by these terms somehow does not include the present Pakistani province of Punjab. This is an incorrect impression. These terms are used for the entire northern subcontinent — the area above the Vindhya mountains — and, in the context of caste politics, this entire area has common characteristics that are distinct from the area that falls below the Vindhyas. They encompass the entire area of Pakistan in addition to the areas that are on the other side of our borders with post-Partition India.

To somehow conclude that Punjab — or any other part of the present Pakistan — has been free from caste divisions, prejudices, discriminations and politics is to affirm our national trend to deny historical and social reality. Our post-Partition Punjab politics has typically been the power politics between different biradris sharing a specific area. Any number of examples could be found that demonstrate how caste prejudice plays a crucial role in informing individual and group attitudes: from the famous saying adorning the backs of our trucks and buses — Asl se khata nahin/kam, asl se wafa nahin (A high-born can do no wrong/while a person of low origin cannot be loyal) — to a recent whispering campaign vilifying a federal minister in which he was alleged to be from a Nai family. Whether or not the allegation was true, one thing is certain: according to the campaigners, a person’s caste background is the actual determinant of his or her worth!

A more gruesome and violent example is that of Mukhtaran Mai whose teenage brother (a Gujjar) made the mistake of crossing the caste boundary by befriending a woman of a high and dominant caste (Mastoi). As a punishment, he was sodomised by a gang of people who were later convicted for the crime by the Court. Mukhtaran herself, according to the minority judgment of the Supreme Court, was gang raped for her brother’s caste crime.

In order to understand the historical caste divisions in Punjab, I would like to refer to a book called Vichhore da Dagh (The burning wound of separation), by Shamsheer Singh Babra, published from Lahore in 2008. Babra, who was a part of the forced migration of 1947, came from a village called Chhotian Glotian, a few miles from Daska, district Sialkot, and was studying in a college at the time of Partition — which he calls the partition of Punjab. He went on to complete his higher studies in India and the US before embarking on a long career as a social scientist with the World Bank. He wrote this fascinating book, which he calls the biography of his village, recollecting all the minute details of life in Chhotian Glotian as he left it in 1947. On page 34 he writes: “People used to recognise each other on the basis of qaum. Qaum and zaat were one and the same thing. It was written in all official records and stamp papers. Qaum Jat, qaum Zamindar, qaum Tarkhan, qaum Khatri, qaum Teli, qaum Mirasi and so on. Religion was not mentioned. At the time of Partition, in 1947, the distribution of people from different religions [in the village] was as follows: Sikhs 52 per cent, Mussalmans 39 per cent, Christians 7 per cent and Hindus 2 per cent. Sikhs had five qaums: Jat, Ramgarhia, Khatri, Suniara and Mehra … . Mussalmans had the most numerous qaums, as many as 13: Jat, Arain, Lohar, Ghumiar, Bar-wale, Mirasi, Teli, Nai, Mochi, Machhi, Syed and Kashmiri. Only two qaums from Hindus lived there: Suniara and Bahman … . Christians were all considered the same qaum. Christians and Hindus did not own any land”.

Further on, on page 54-5, Babra reveals something which explains why all sweepers in Punjab are Christians. He writes: “Sikhs and Mussalmans in the village (like upper caste Hindus) did not allow the Untouchables (Dalits) to enter their folds. These people lived separately in a thathhi outside the village. Their way of worship was Pagan-like, but they followed the Hindu social customs. After the British Raj was established in 1848, [Christian] missionaries spread in the whole of Punjab. Around 1875, all the Untouchables from the village converted to Christianity. However, their lifestyle and social status did not change. They remained second-class citizens as before …” .

“Untouchables were outside the system. Sikhism, Islam and Christianity negated the hierarchy based on caste and kept the doors open for everyone to acquire knowledge. However, society went on following the same old ways. Each caste married within its fold. Hardly any Sikh violated this rule. Caste system was much stronger among Mussalmans. All Sikhs went to the same gurdwara but Mussalmans would only go to pray in the mosque belonging to their own sect. As people started moving from villages to the free environment of cities, and got educated and well-off, some of them changed their castes. Nais would start calling themselves Jats, Lohars became Khatris. It happened the other way round too. Many Rajputs mingled into Jats; some Bahmans got involved in business and became Khatris. Away from home, anybody could make himself anything he liked — who would know! Especially in Canada, the US and England, people [from Punjab] use their changed surnames. There was a famous saying which went like this:

Pehlon si asi Julahe, pher ban gaye Darzi/ Holi holi ho gaye Sayyad, aggon Rab di marzi! (In the beginning we were Julaha, then became Darzi/Gradually we turned into Sayyad, whatever God wills happens!)”

Some Untouchables did convert to Islam and Sikhism despite resistance from powerful groups; however, they ended up being called ‘Musallis’ in the former and ‘Mazhabi Sikhs’ in the latter case and treated as Untouchables.

Published in The Express Tribune, April 28th, 2012.
https://tribune.com.pk/story/370904/castes-in-punjab/

 

[B.K.N]

Kammis who change biradris nirmally just go with Syed,Qureshi or other middle eastern biradri they dont just adopt south asian biradri

Not true
I've personally seen examples

Pehlon si asi Julahe, pher ban gaye Darzi/ Holi holi ho gaye Sayyad, aggon Rab di marzi!

I have heard this saying many times

 

[Zibago]

Not true
I've personally seen examples

Not the trend I have observed in cases I observed Syed is one of the most milkable biradri for those wanted to lie themselves to a better future

 

[B.K.N]

Musallis

This word came from mussalah a carpet or mat at which we offer prayers

 

[Crusher]

This word came from mussalah a carpet or mat at which we offer prayers

I think the above poster "zibago" doesn't have deep roots in punjab like me and you so he doesn't understand the intricacies of this stuff in our society.

 

[SIPRA]

Butts(Bhats) were Kashmiri brahmins who converted and Sharifs adopted title Mian which is an honorary title
They migrated to Punjab during dogra raj

I have heard that the brother of great grandfather of Mian NS used to sell flower bracelets and necklaces in the red light area of Amritsar. Such people sometimes also become part time pimps.

 

[Crusher]

I have heard that the brother of great grandfather of Mian NS used to sell flower bracelets and necklaces in the red light area of Amritsar. Such people sometimes also become part time pimps.

You are wasting your time, the zibago guy believes more the BS written by indian brahmins on wikipedia or other online websites than the first hand accounts of his own countrymen on the ground.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Nawaz Sharif is lohar or butt

Some say his ancestors were originally Kumhar from Kashmir (before settling in Punjab).

 

[Crusher]

Some say his ancestors were originally Kumhar from Kashmir (before settling in Punjab).

I have read a book on Kashmir valley written by Sir Lawrence when he was deputed there in 1890, he wrote that during 1800s kashmir valley society was very fragile and changing castes was regular think in Kashmir valley at that time, he wrote that many muslims of menial origins started claiming "pandit" or "brahmin" descent possibly because pandits/brahmins were enjoying elite status during dogra rule, almost all boatmen hanjis adopted "dar" caste, many butchers became "ganai". Also he wrote in that book that Kashmiri muslims in 1800s had a funny caste structure, so a farmer will only marry another from his village or a neigbhoring village if the other family was also farmer. So he wrote that A "Tantray" will marry a "Rather" as long as both belong to farmer/agriculturist families. And it was a regular thing in kashmir valley in those days for people to lose their caste if a farmer lost his land/livelihood and turned into a kammi/menial, then no farmer/agriculturist will marry in that family eventhough they were originally from the farmer families. The reverse was also true that some kammis/menials moved to another village and turned into a peasant/farmer and started intermarrying with other farmer families of that village or neighboring villages.

So I have reached to the conclusion that in both Kashmir valley and Punjab, the castes/professions were not fixed for people who didn't own land over successive generations. The current bradaris/castes of people in punjab are just based on the latest professions of their immediate ancestors or in other cases whatever they adopted when they migrated from one area to another area.

 

[M. Sarmad]

So I have reached to the conclusion that in both Kashmir valley and Punjab, the castes/professions were not fixed for people who didn't own land over successive generations. The current bradaris/castes of people in punjab are just based on the latest professions of their immediate ancestors or in other cases whatever they adopted when they migrated from one area to another area.

Seems quite plausible

 

[newb3e]

I have heard that the brother of great grandfather of Mian NS used to sell flower bracelets and necklaces in the red light area of Amritsar. Such people sometimes also become part time pimps.

thats the natural progression from flowers neckless to selling actual flowers.

 

[krash]

This is internet BS, every kashmiri is called "Butt" in central punjab, here being "Butt" only means Kashmiri descent, even kammi migrants from kashmir also pass as "Butt" in central punjab.

Might be the case where you are at but doesn't really hold true for the overwhelming majority of Kashmiri migrants in Punjab. For example, my mother's maternal side is Butt but her paternal side is Kasher (Kashmiri for Kashmiri). My Dad's maternal side is Khwajah while his paternal side is Sheikh. There are a lot of other surnames for Kashmiris in Punajab and otherwise, all with different histories of their surnames. If you add the Punjabi migrants to Kashmir who now identify them selves as Kashmiri, the stories become even more confusing. Anyway, all Kashmiris are Butts only for people who are ignorant of the diversity that is this beautiful land. Exactly like all Pukhtoons are Khans for most of Pakistan and everyone who lives in North and North-Western Pakistan is a Pukhtoon. People just don't know.

Zibago is actually correct. Butt is a mispronunciation of Bhat and these guys were indeed Brahmins. You still find Bhats in IOK.

It is a common culture in punjab with kammis to change their caste names when they move out of their old areas because in new areas no one knows what they were back in their old area and can claim whatever BS they want. I know countless Nai "Sandhu", "cheema", "ghummans" in my area, you don't understand the complexities of bradarism in pre-modern times punjab. So don't believe the BS you read on "wikipedia" or other sh1tty "online sources".

Firstly, what I'm about to say is my family history and was actually documented in written form, so not internet bs.

"Sheikh" is a very good example for this. It was first adopted by Brahmin pundits. After converting, a lot of these pundits were faced with the problem that their surnames were religiously Hindu in nature. For example, my great grandfather's name was Pandit Mansanath before he converted to Islam. These new converts could not keep their surnames for obvious reasons. At this time the title "Sheikh" was respected immensely in the Muslim circles because it was given to Islamic teachers and scholars of the time, tracing it's origins from the Arab missionaries who had come before them. It was not a surname yet, it was a title. However, when these Brahmins converted they found it an easy pick as their new adopted surname, especially in the case of Kashmiri Brahmins since they didn't want to forfeit their archaic status as the pinnacle of Hindu society. Later on, it actually became a regular practice for new converts to adopt this surname across the board, some because of the above mentioned reason and some who just wanted to rid themselves of the socio-economic baggage which came with their original names. It reached the extent that the term "Sheikh" completely lost its use as a title for Islamic Scholars and became a term (not even just a surname) for new converts, i.e. even new converts who did not adopt it as their surname were still referred to as Sheikhs. Today though it is just a surname. These are the reasons why you will actually find Sheikhs across the racial and socio-economic fabric of Pakistan. There are Punjabi, Sindhi, Balochi, Kashmiri, Saraiki and even Pukhtoon Sheikhs.

BTW no one in Gujranwala considers any "Sheikh" as Kashmiri Butt, Sheikh are totally different bradari, it doesn't matter whether they came from kashmir, afghanistan or iran.

As explained above, Sheikhs are not a biradari. The Sheikhs you find in Gujranwala are predominantly Punjabi Sheikhs just like the famous Faisalabadi Sheikhs. Kashmiri Sheikhs have a term for non-Kashmiri Sheikhs, which has garnered some negative connotations over the years and so I won't state it.

Only god knows what he is, but most of his relatives are Kashmiri Butt and his wife Kalsoom Nawaz was also Kashmiri Butt, so I believe he is likely also Kashmiri Butt. But as they were in the business of Steel making in Ittefaq Foundary Lahore, their political opponents just spread the rumor that they are "Lohar", and because Nawaz sharif family uses "Mian" as a title and live in Lahore where "Mian" is usually associated with Arains so many Arains at least until 90s used to think Mian Nawaz sharif was Arain.
Both ganja brothers have never publicly announced their bradari, I think they just don't care about it anymore.

Yeah, the Sharif bratheran are Kashmiris, unfortunately.

Later on every Kashmiri was called butt after migrating to Punjab but origin of Butt is Bhat of Kashmir
When did I say people consider Sheikh as Butts?
And no all Kashmiris are not called Butts
Lones and Dars are a thing

People just assume that people belonging to various Kashmiri biradaris tend to be pmln supporters

Lol right now I am sitting in rural Sialkot in an area dominated by Bajwas and Gujjars
But ok I will play along


Um no Sheikh is a Kashmiri title for converts @krash
Btw offtopic get back to the poll

On it, yet again!

 

[Zibago]

Might be the case where you are at but doesn't really hold true for the overwhelming majority of Kashmiri migrants in Punjab. For example, my mother's maternal side is Butt but her paternal side is Kasher (Kashmiri for Kashmiri). My Dad's maternal side is Khwajah while his paternal side is Sheikh. There are a lot of other surnames for Kashmiris in Punajab and otherwise, all with different histories of their surnames. If you add the Punjabi migrants to Kashmir who now identify them selves as Kashmiri, the stories become even more confusing. Anyway, all Kashmiris are Butts only for people who are ignorant of the diversity that is this beautiful land. Exactly like all Pukhtoons are Khans for most of Pakistan and everyone who lives in North and North-Western Pakistan is a Pukhtoon. People just don't know.

Zibago is actually correct. Butt is a mispronunciation of Bhat and these guys were indeed Brahmins. You still find Bhats in IOK.



Firstly, what I'm about to say is my family history and was actually documented in written form, so not internet bs.

"Sheikh" is a very good example for this. It was first adopted by Brahmin pundits. After converting, a lot of these pundits were faced with the problem that their surnames were religiously Hindu in nature. For example, my great grandfather's name was Pandit Mansanath before he converted to Islam. These new converts could not keep their surnames for obvious reasons. At this time the title "Sheikh" was respected immensely in the Muslim circles because it was given to Islamic teachers and scholars of the time, tracing it's origins from the Arab missionaries who had come before them. It was not a surname yet, it was a title. However, when these Brahmins converted they found it an easy pick as their new adopted surname, especially in the case of Kashmiri Brahmins since they didn't want to forfeit their archaic status as the pinnacle of Hindu society. Later on, it actually became a regular practice for new converts to adopt this surname across the board, some because of the above mentioned reason and some who just wanted to rid themselves of the socio-economic baggage which came with their original names. It reached the extent that the term "Sheikh" completely lost its use as a title for Islamic Scholars and became a term (not even just a surname) for new converts, i.e. even new converts who did not adopt it as their surname were still referred to as Sheikhs. Today though it is just a surname. These are the reasons why you will actually find Sheikhs across the racial and socio-economic fabric of Pakistan. There are Punjabi, Sindhi, Balochi, Kashmiri, Saraiki and even Pukhtoon Sheikhs.



As explained above, Sheikhs are not a biradari. The Sheikhs you find in Gujranwala are predominantly Punjabi Sheikhs just like the famous Faisalabadi Sheikhs. Kashmiri Sheikhs have a term for non-Kashmiri Sheikhs, which has garnered some negative connotations over the years and so I won't state it.



Yeah, the Sharif bratheran are Kashmiris, unfortunately.




On it, yet again!

Na yaar Gujranwala has a lot of Sheikhs who are Kashmiri origin claiming faland dimkan was from different regions of Kashmir. I mean its right next to Sialkot which has a historical connection with Kashmir

Btw nice explanation and sorry for going offtopic again