INS Vishal might be nuclear-powered aircraft carrier : Naval Design Bureau

[Gessler]

As far as displacement goes, I'm not making any bets yet...but I'll pivot around the 65,000 tons figure. It may
go up to 70-75,000 tons if the design permits. The biggest deal will be that we'll be building more than one of these...
probably 2 or 3, as the Vikramaditya would also need a replacement & ultimately it makes sense for IN to operate
3 carriers of one class to cut down logistical costs.

The reactor will be the derived from the same 180-200 megawatt PWR that's being developed for future SSBNs
and SSNs.

The displacement, on paper, will be similar to UK's Queen Elizabeth-class carriers, but will be slightly larger in terms of
size, and the CATOBAR design & nuclear propulsion would ensure it would have more capacity for carrying aircraft, both
in terms of numbers & variety (the likes of AEWs and UCAVs can be launched).

--

Only a naval version of the FGFA seems like a probable compliment for the air wing...if not, Rafale-M would be used.
No LCAs or MiGs will be based on this carrier.

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

Only a naval version of the FGFA seems like a probable compliment for the air wing...if not, Rafale-M would be used.
No LCAs or MiGs will be based on this carrier.

I seriously hope that you are wrong. I would love to see the navy take control of the AMCA program. Their program Management and project management will come handy in the program. Their support will be invaluable.

Remember first Rafale-M was designed and flown. We should follow the same path for AMCA. Modiji are you listening ?


It would also boost IN chance of building larger IAC and supporting ships and crafts.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Only a naval version of the FGFA seems like a probable compliment for the air wing.

I don't know about that- it should be the ultimate solution but to date there has been no indication that Russia is planning to build a fighter a/c capable of launching from catapults and is the Pak-FA/FGFA's basic design capable of being modifying for such? It seems very doubtful right now which, sadly, seems to rule out the Naval Pak-Fa/FGFA as the IN seems (rightly) intent on CATOBAR carriers.

& ultimately it makes sense for IN to operate
3 carriers of one class to cut down logistical costs.

The IN stated a few years back that current plans are for 5/6 ACCs by around 2035-40.

 

[Gessler]

I don't know about that- it should be the ultimate solution but to date there has been no indication that Russia is planning to build a fighter a/c capable of launching from catapults and is the Pak-FA/FGFA's basic design capable of being modifying for such? It seems very doubtful right now which, sadly, seems to rule out the Naval Pak-Fa/FGFA as the IN seems (rightly) intent on CATOBAR carriers.

FGFA will just HAVE to be modified for CATOBAR ops. No other choice.

N-AMCA isn't realistic to consider at the moment, and I'm not gonna waste time on dictating what could/should
be done with this plane. It's like discussing about where India should base it's anti-gravity aircraft fleet, once we get them.

F-35B/C are gonna be pretty much a bit too costly for the limited performance they offer. They're likely to come
with certain restrictions of use/authorization/too many diplomatic or tech strings attached etc. etc. And having
the Air Force & Navy operate two entirely different types of 5th generation aircraft would be highly cost-prohibitive
as well. Especially when neither of them is truly indigenous.

For a frontline force supposed to be built up beginning post-2025 and supposed to serve through 2040-2050s, a 4.5 gen
fighter like Rafale-M isn't quite enough to begin with. We'll eventually have to switch to 5th gens and it's best to
modify an existing 5th gen rather than sit around with a 4.5 at a time when IN would be expected to boss around IOR...
what with countries like Oz & Singapore getting F-35s. Won't be long before they start flying the B version off LHDs.

The IN stated a few years back that current plans are for 5/6 ACCs by around 2035-40.

Would love to see the source of that claim. As far as I know we're aiming for 3 carriers, one for BoB/China, one for
AS/Pakistan/Middle East and one in refit/reserve.

5-6 carriers are truly unnecessary unless you're looking to patrol the world. Infact China too wouldn't realistically
acquire more than 3 operational carriers (discounting Liaoning which would be a training ship).

 

[Rockstar]

The IN stated a few years back that current plans are for 5/6 ACCs by around 2035-40.

5-6? source?

 

[sancho]

FGFA will just HAVE to be modified for CATOBAR ops. No other choice.

Not going to happen, too complicated, since it was not designed for that purpose and no western company will be able to support that development, as the Russians surely won't allow western sources access to their most advanced techs.

The choice for IN are quiet clear actually:

- either they get catapults from the US, which means going for Rafale M, F18SH (most likely with Silent Hornet upgrades now) or F35C

- or they don't get it and go for a larger version of IAC 1, which is big enough to operate naval FGFAs

- AMCA will depend on the development, on what kind of carrier it can be used. According the current plans of DRDO, it will be a navalised air force version, which then again will be limited to STOBAR carriers only, just as N-LCA

 

[MokshaVimukthi]

One area where India and China can work together is in development of EM Catapult.

Both of us need it, so why not split the cost and own the technology.

 

[Rockstar]

What type of weapon systems could we expect on the carrier?

 

[Gessler]

Not going to happen, too complicated, since it was not designed for that purpose and no western company will be able to support that development, as the Russians surely won't allow western sources access to their most advanced techs.

The choice for IN are quiet clear actually:

- either they get catapults from the US, which means going for Rafale M, F18SH (most likely with Silent Hornet upgrades now) or F35C

- or they don't get it and go for a larger version of IAC 1, which is big enough to operate naval FGFAs

- AMCA will depend on the development, on what kind of carrier it can be used. According the current plans of DRDO, it will be a navalised air force version, which then again will be limited to STOBAR carriers only, just as N-LCA

As I said, 4.5 gen jets will become quite inferior for the time-period where Vishaal & it's possible sister ships are
supposed to serve. While there is a possibility we might indeed go for Rafale-M (I would count out F/A-18s because
it would make sense both from a technical, cost & logistical perspective to go for Rafale-M, which would share
it's table with IAF Rafales, rather than a new MMRCA), it would at best be seen as an interim solution.

Eventually we'll have to switch to 5th gens.

There are only 3 options which speak sense with the times :

1) Navalised FGFA - It isn't impossible to modify it for CATOBAR. Problem will be if we decide to install US EMALS
on Vishaal, integrating this with that could both be a technical & political problem...unless we somehow manage
to cloak the FGFA's Russian origins (probably by making it an India-only project under HAL/DRDO with Sukhoi
as "consultant"). Diplomatically, there is for sure a way around. Technicalities can be quite problematic, but if
IN decides that FGFA is what it wants to be flying from Vishaal, it would be possible to make it work.

However, if we decide to ditch EMALS and go for an advanced steam catapult (either develop it indigenously
or JV with Russia/France) the N-FGFA will be a bigger possibility. However this could have an effect on
operation of US-origin ac like E-2 Hawkeye.

I can't help but feel that the US offer of EMALS is a plan to winch big deals for F-35C/E-2D from IN.

But the F-35 is a tsunami I for one wouldn't try to step into. The whole program is quite a mess and I don't
seriously think the plane offers much beyond some shiny electronics and being more stealthy (atleast
when compared to PAK-FA prototypes) in the EM spectrum. It is really a bomber that constantly needs support
of escorts, jamming platforms etc. to survive in contested airspace, not an air superiority plane - In the words of
USAF Chief of air combat command himself.

2) Wait for N-AMCA, in other words, go hungry while waiting for gravity to do it's job on the apple.

3) Go for the F-35B/C. If you ask me, quite a big mistake for someone like India.

 

[nvKyleBrown]

What type of weapon systems could we expect on the carrier?

The most important thing is the aircraft that it carries. The Russians used to have a cruiser/carrier concept, which had significant armament, but everyone else seems to be going with purer carriers where the aircraft provide all the offensive punch. Some of the helicopter carrier designs, particularly Japanese, are a bit more missile armed. But, I don't think India has that in mind.

 

[Rockstar]

Having two aircraft carriers already in the fleet, India has started working on second indigenous aircraft carrier, that would be the largest warship of Indian Navy.

INS Vikramaditya of Russian origin in 45,000 tonnes category was recently inducted in the Navy, while INS Virat having water displacement capacity of 28,000 tonne has been in service for more than two decades.

India's own aircraft carrier INS Vikrant was launched last year, which is undergoing series of vigorous sea trials at present.

Rear Admiral Anil Kumar Saxena, Director General in Directorate of Naval Designed (DND) in an exclusive interview to UNI, said, "We have reached at the stage of conceptualisation and the requirements of the vessel are being frozen, keeping in mind the future needs of the nation."

Although the weight of the ship will be fixed once all the requirements are frozen, but the future aircraft carrier should be in the range of 60 thousand tons, the officer said.

Admiral Saxena said that INS Vikrant, indigenous aircraft carrier built by Cochin Shipyard Limited is expected be inducted in the Indian Navy in December 2018.

Work on the first Indian aircraft carrier had begun in 1999, and the keel was laid in February, 2009. The carrier was floated out of its dry dock on December 29, 2011 and it was launched in 2013.

The officer indicated that the new carrier may be equipped with state of the art and most modern CATOBAR (Catapult Assisted Take-Off But Arrested Recovery) system, which is used for the launch and recovery of aircraft for flight deck operations.

INS Vikrant is 262 metres (860 ft) long and 60 metres (200 ft) wide, and displaces about 40,000 metric tonnes. It features a Short Take-Off But Arrested Recovery (STOBAR) configuration with a ski-jump.

The deck is designed to enable aircraft such as the MiG-29K and LCA-Navy to operate from the carrier.

It is expected to carry an air group of up to thirty aircraft, which will include up to 30 fixed-wing aircraft, primarily the Mikoyan MiG-29K and the naval variant of the HAL Tejas Mark 2, besides carrying 10 Kamov Ka-31 or Westland Sea King helicopters.

Admiral Saxena said that next aircraft carrier would have much more 'parking space'; for the fighter jets and the choppers.

Sunday, September 28, 2014
By : UNI

 

[Rockstar]

We have reached at the stage of conceptualisation and the requirements of the vessel are being frozen, keeping in mind the future needs of the nation

Given the trend of India's growth, the navy might focus on power projection to gain dominance across the Indian ocean and counter the Chinese. So I think we should expect the carrier carry some good offensive package. A naval FGFA, LCA or an AMCA is a good possibility.

Mig-29K would become obsolete by 2030's but they could be part of the carrier's fleet.

India is not interested in buying the F-35 and would not buy it at all. It doesn't satisfy the needs of the Indian Navy.

Even the Naval AMCA has a better chance of being developed than India buying F-35s.

The Naval FGFA would be a good bet as India has spent money to form a JV with Russia and it would easier to develop an naval version. It would be superior to the F-35 in all aspects if it ever becomes a reality.

 

[Didact]

As far as displacement goes, I'm not making any bets yet...but I'll pivot around the 65,000 tons figure. It may
go up to 70-75,000 tons if the design permits. The biggest deal will be that we'll be building more than one of these...
probably 2 or 3, as the Vikramaditya would also need a replacement & ultimately it makes sense for IN to operate
3 carriers of one class to cut down logistical costs.

The reactor will be the derived from the same 180-200 megawatt PWR that's being developed for future SSBNs
and SSNs.

The displacement, on paper, will be similar to UK's Queen Elizabeth-class carriers, but will be slightly larger in terms of
size, and the CATOBAR design & nuclear propulsion would ensure it would have more capacity for carrying aircraft, both
in terms of numbers & variety (the likes of AEWs and UCAVs can be launched).
.

The British QE was, atleast for a period of time, a subject of interest for the IN. Not so coincidentally, this was also the period when the rumors of INS Vishal became prominent amongst defense enthusiasts, which is more or less why the INS Vishal is assumed to be similar to the QE, configuration wise.

But in all honesty, that's pretty much the only direct relation we can develop between the two projects. No official text or comment has ever linked the two projects. However though, and unknown to most, another project too evinced n interest from the IN, the French PA2.

The declassified bits about the PA2 programme reveal its closeness to the (umors of) the INS Vishal. The two carriers are supposed to be CATOBARS, both with nearly the same tonnage, and if the IN selects the Rafale and the E2D AWE&C, pretty much the same airwing.

These are the reasons why French programme might just be a better marker for the INS Vishal than the British, even though the former is still on the drawing board. The presence of nuclear propulsion on the former also lends credence to this speculation.

There is also the fact that the PA2 is expected to be a modification of the QE design, with an additional tonnage of 10,000 tons, which suggests that the QE design is not sufficiently large for the French Navy. The IN too would most likely make the same conclusion, given the vastness of the Indian Ocean region, coupled with the fact that the INS Vishal will be expected to serve till 2070, and beyond.

Just my thought.

 

[Agent_47]

Can someone explain why a 40k ton ship is only 25200 ton after fabrication.?
@sancho @Gessler @Penguin

While outfitting and shafting have gathered momentum on Vikrant, the carrier is gearing up for its launch from the building bay by the end of the year, indicate sources.

“The carrier only has about 1,200 tonnes of steel left to go on the structure. Right now, it has a tonnage of about 24,000.”

Cochin Shipyard stares at a lean order book - The Hindu

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Second nuclear powered aircraft carrier. No doubt India is spending heavily on military.Arms race with china!