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INS Vikramaditya commissioned

Where did I said that? But you tried to justify the cost-overruns that even CAG has slamed with the faith you have in IN and their competence. I only showed you that their competence is provenly flawed (just as I showed you that they could had got far more capable aircrafts and systems), when you look at the reality but if you admit that or not is up to you of course.

I am not justifying cost over runs, am just justifying the fact that Navy paid the amount because it knows that the amount payed worth be worth it .. You did not show anything till now except your opinions which i disagreed with .

Of course, because the Russians wanted to make money and they needed us to fund the Mig 29K and several modernizations, which otherwise would had been paid only by Russian navy. That's why they offered us the carrier for free with the condition to buy Russian aircrafts.

Am not talking about Russians , am talking about the IN

From statements of IN officials, from the fact that it won't have more hardpoints, or that the ski-jump take off will limit it's payload further than it already is. Once again, we do have infos and we can judge them or simply ignore them.

Its good either way , we need to induct indigenous platforms more to support our local defense industries . It will only benefit us later . But of course you would want us to waste money on foreign equipment for temporary gains.

As I explained earlier, not the fact that the deal was linked to them, but the fact that we chose additional aircrafts that will be used and IAC 1 makes clear that they will be base of the fleet for these carriers over their operational life. You can of course upgrade certain systems, but you can't counter design flaws, that makes them inferior compared to competitors. Even with AESA radar, the Mig will never be a Rafale or an F18SH.

You won't be seeing the same fighters and Heli's operating of Vikramaditya 20 years from now . The AEW Heli's will most probably be replaced later on as IN gets access to better systems . The IN never shies away from better equipment . If they are taking inferior ones as you suggest there is a good reason behind it.

:enjoy: Which shows your level of denial. They have a carrier available today, have succesfully developed carrier fighter varients, have different naval helicopters for ASW or AEW roles, are developing catapults and catapult capable AEW aircrafts, are training with Brazilian navy for carrier operations, have credible access to the Ukraine forces and industry for experience and techs and what is most worrisome are developinh stealth aircrafts for their carriers.
All we have is, decades of experience with older carriers and in future 2 carriers that will carry roughly the ammount of aircrafts a single Chinese carrier will have.

If you are talking about Laoning, i already suggested that in the previous post :rolleyes:, so I would expected you to read it before making judgments about me(looks more like you are good at making judgments on everyone, including your own navy :lol:). Laoning is a training carrier and will be used for just that, for training . The brand new carriers Chinese are building will take more than a decade to be fully operational and it will take far more time to get used to carrier operations and develop plans and doctrines for those carriers . As for all the stuff they are developing let them first develop them and get them in working order . We are also developing a whole lot of things and they're also developing a whole lot of things .


Vikramaditya useless,N-LCA useless,Indian Navy incompetant you sound like one of those Chinese trolls
 
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I am not justifying cost over runs, am just justifying the fact that Navy paid the amount because it knows that the amount payed worth be worth it

Which doesn't make sense, since they never intended to pay that much for the carrier, because their initial estimates and those of the Russians of course were far lower. You can also add the years of delays, which also made it less worth it, because the initial plan was to use it as a stop gap till IAC 1 will be available and to train pilots and crews in the mean time. But now the carrier is more than 5 years delayed and has far higher cost at the same time. So they didn't paid anything based on what they knew, they just paid it because they couldn't back out anymore (too big to fail) and not because it still worth it as they planned it.

Am not talking about Russians , am talking about the IN

But IN had not choice, so no matter what they wanted, they had to take Migs and Kamov helicopter. We even know that IN initially wanted naval MKIs and not Migs, or that they asked Boeing and Dassault for informations on the use of their fighters on Vikramaditya. But at the end they sticked to it with the prospect to get the carrier at cheap or at least reasonable cost, which didn't turned out as they hoped.
As I said, the only decision they could had changed, was to go for the follow orders and for N-LCA, or to make the carriers more capable by adding other aircrafts, but they didn't.

Its good either way , we need to induct indigenous platforms more to support our local defense industries . It will only benefit us later .

Another justification of wasting money for pride reasons! IN don't need a modest carrier fighter for operational terms, nor do we need an operational carrier fighter version to develop experience in navalising fighters. We already do it with the N-LCA MK1 tech demonstrators. That exactly what tech demonstrator programs are used all over the world! To gain experience with new capabilities, BUT WITHOUT wasting too much time and money when there is no useful requirement for them at the moment. So all IN achieves with N-LCA MK2 development is, making their airwing less capable as it could be, complicating the LCA program as a whole by adding mixing their requirements with IAFs and wasting money that could had been used for more useful arms and techs.

Laoning is a training carrier and will be used for just that, for training .

Which is nonsense, since there is nothing like a training carrier! Either you induct a carrier to operational service and train your crew and pilots on it, at operations on high seas, or you just have a stationary carrier to train and test there. The carrier is operational, they have plenty of aircrafts available which can be deployed to full operational status anytime they want.
It's like saying INS Chakra is only a training sub, because it's prime use today was to train crews in operations of nuclear submarines and nobody stops us from using torpedos or missiles from it or? Exactly, just as nothing stops PLAN to use the carrier with a complete airwing and the CBG that it already has to deploy it to the Indian Ocean area if needed (although it's main aim will be the defence of Chinas coastlines, but that's another issue).
So the fact is, they have a carrier and all necessary capabilities today, which already are superior to what IN has and they already plan with NG fighters and capabilities, while IN is wasting time and money with N-LCA.

I am not justifying cost over runs, am just justifying the fact that Navy paid the amount because it knows that the amount payed worth be worth it

Which doesn't make sense, since they never intended to pay that much for the carrier, because their initial estimates and those of the Russians of course were far lower. You can also add the years of delays, which also made it less worth it, because the initial plan was to use it as a stop gap till IAC 1 will be available and to train pilots and crews in the mean time. But now the carrier is more than 5 years delayed and has far higher cost at the same time. So they didn't paid anything based on what they knew, they just paid it because they couldn't back out anymore (too big to fail) and not because it still worth it as they planned it.

Am not talking about Russians , am talking about the IN
But IN had not choice, so no matter what they wanted, they had to take Migs and Kamov helicopter. We even know that IN initially wanted naval MKIs and not Migs, or that they asked Boeing and Dassault for informations on the use of their fighters on Vikramaditya. But at the end they sticked to it with the prospect to get the carrier at cheap or at least reasonable cost, which didn't turned out as they hoped.
As I said, the only decision they could had changed, was to go for the follow orders and for N-LCA, or to make the carriers more capable by adding other aircrafts, but they didn't.

Its good either way , we need to induct indigenous platforms more to support our local defense industries . It will only benefit us later .

Another justification of wasting money for pride reasons! IN don't need a modest (that's how they call it!) carrier fighter for operational needs, nor do we need an operational carrier fighter version to develop experience in navalising fighters. We already do it with the N-LCA MK1 tech demonstrators. That exactly what tech demonstrator programs are used all over the world! To gain experience with new capabilities, BUT WITHOUT wasting too much time and money when there is no useful requirement for them at the moment. So all IN achieves with N-LCA MK2 development is, making their airwing less capable as it could be, complicating the LCA program as a whole by adding mixing their requirements with IAFs and wasting money that could had been used for more useful arms and techs.

Vikramaditya useless,N-LCA useless,Indian Navy incompetant you sound like one of those Chinese trolls
A troll is usually someone that is ignoring facts and reality, not the one that show it. And I didn't said Vikramaditya is useless, it's operationally limited and finacial disaster!
 
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A troll is usually someone that is ignoring facts and reality, not the one that show it. And I didn't said Vikramaditya is useless, it's operationally limited and finacial disaster!

So indian navy is the biggest troll as per your standard. Sacho babu you must show your facts and reality to Indian navy because they have opposite opinion. Vikramaditya is not perfect, but Indian Navy deemed it to be the best of the options it had.
 
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So indian navy is the biggest troll as per your standard. Sacho babu you must show your facts and reality to Indian navy because they have opposite opinion. Vikramaditya is not perfect, but Indian Navy deemed it to be the best of the options it had.


HeHeHe, a nice exchange of posts going on; like a "ping-pong" match........

In uniform; I had a chance to meet up with Admirals, but now on the internet, I also get to meet with "Armchair Admirals" whose (virtual) Fleets can navigate through the infinite spans of 'Cyber-Space'.

So; is it time to disband the IN and send all its Mariners into the oblivion of demobbed Warriors? :azn:
 
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Which doesn't make sense, since they never intended to pay that much for the carrier, because their initial estimates and those of the Russians of course were far lower. You can also add the years of delays, which also made it less worth it, because the initial plan was to use it as a stop gap till IAC 1 will be available and to train pilots and crews in the mean time. But now the carrier is more than 5 years delayed and has far higher cost at the same time. So they didn't paid anything based on what they knew, they just paid it because they couldn't back out anymore (too big to fail) and not because it still worth it as they planned it.

Russia clearly gave the option to bail out and India could have bailed out early on during cost over runs and we came very very close to bailing out of the carrier program , so no we were not stuck with it . And from what i know Vikrmaditya was supposed to replace Viraat and was not supposed to be used as stop gap till IAC1 as you suggested .Its an Aircraft Carrier with a full compliment of aircrafts . One has to be stupid to claim it is useless or even suggest anything close to it.

But IN had not choice, so no matter what they wanted, they had to take Migs and Kamov helicopter. We even know that IN initially wanted naval MKIs and not Migs, or that they asked Boeing and Dassault for informations on the use of their fighters on Vikramaditya. But at the end they sticked to it with the prospect to get the carrier at cheap or at least reasonable cost, which didn't turned out as they hoped.
As I said, the only decision they could had changed, was to go for the follow orders and for N-LCA, or to make the carriers more capable by adding other aircrafts, but they didn't.

Is there any source to suggest India wanted Mki's and not Migs ? These aircrafts are not going to stay the same for next 30 years as better system come up they will be upgraded or replaced . IN has no compulsion to keep running the same systems for the next 30 years or so.

Another justification of wasting money for pride reasons!

No, you are just being stupid here . You would rather see India enslaved to foreign suppliers for rest of their lives than learn to develop and use their own equipment.

Which is nonsense, since there is nothing like a training carrier!
Either you induct a carrier to operational service and train your crew and pilots on it, at operations on high seas, or you just have a stationary carrier to train and test there. The carrier is operational, they have plenty of aircrafts available which can be deployed to full operational status anytime they want.
It's like saying INS Chakra is only a training sub, because it's prime use today was to train crews in operations of nuclear submarines and nobody stops us from using torpedos or missiles from it or? Exactly, just as nothing stops PLAN to use the carrier with a complete airwing and the CBG that it already has to deploy it to the Indian Ocean area if needed (although it's main aim will be the defence of Chinas coastlines, but that's another issue).
So the fact is, they have a carrier and all necessary capabilities today, which already are superior to what IN has and they already plan with NG fighters and capabilities, while IN is wasting time and money with N-LCA.

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424053111903635604576472014072981554
from the following link
First Chinese Carrier Task Force Passes The Test
In 2011 China confirmed that the Liaoning will primarily be a training carrier.

The Aviationist » Photo of India’s new Aircraft Carrier Battle Group. Better than China’s?


Go tell that to Chinese . Its a training carrier as claimed by Chinese themselves . You just cant build and learn to fully operate aircraft carriers in 3 years, thats just a wet dream.

A troll is usually someone that is ignoring facts and reality, not the one that show it. And I didn't said Vikramaditya is useless, it's operationally limited and finacial disaster!

Or someone who claims his opinions are reality and calls everyone else blind , false pride etc... etc... because they disagreed with you . :lol:

HeHeHe, a nice exchange of posts going on; like a "ping-pong" match........

In uniform; I had a chance to meet up with Admirals, but now on the internet, I also get to meet with "Armchair Admirals" whose (virtual) Fleets can navigate through the infinite spans of 'Cyber-Space'.

So; is it time to disband the IN and send all its Mariners into the oblivion of demobbed Warriors? :azn:

DRDO or HAL ko hi disband kar do sab kuch bahar sai hi khareedenge :partay:
 
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No, you are just being stupid here . You would rather see India enslaved to foreign suppliers for rest of their lives than learn to develop and use their own equipment.

Typical reply when pride blinds people and they have no arguments left. Enslaved to foreign suppliers lol what nonsese! :lol:
Wake up buddy, we need foreign help to design N-LCA, we need foreign help to fix the problems of the fighter, we need foreign help to fix and develop our puls doppler radar, we need foreign help to design and develop both indigenous carriers..., so we remain dependent on foreign support and equipment for years anyway, no matter if we call the developments indigenous or not. A Mig 29K with an indigenous radar and engine is more useful for IN than N-LCA, while a new IAC 1 is more worth the money than a refurbished Russian carrier at the same cost. Just as a naval AMCA development would make a lot of sense for IN's future, while N-LCA MK2 is just nonsense in all possible areas.
It's not the origin that makes a procurement or development useful and worth it, but if it makes operational and finacial sense!
 
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@Star Wars; you have made some correct points in post#426

1. India could have exited the Gorshkov project when the cost and time over-runs were climbing rapidly. Actually there was great deal of political pressure to do so. But that did not take place. Since some of the reasons for the time and cost over-runs could be laid at India's doorstep. Secondly and most importantly, exit and seek which alternate option? There was none. Period.

2. IN did not seek a Naval version of the MKI. Because it could not be operated effectively from Gorshkov. The first and last choice of aircraft was the MiG. And the correctness of that choice was validated when the Russians themselves moth-balled the Flanker option for their own Navy, after the IN had ordered its Fulcrums.

3.The fact of the matter is that Varyag/Liaoning is still a Training Carrier and will continue to be so for some more time because it is being operated by a Navy with no previous Carrier Operations. That is nothing for anybody to be ashamed of. For that matter, even Vikramaditya is now a Training Carrier (but to a far lesser extent) because some hang-over of Carrier Ops and related SOPs are still existing in the IN, save for the re-conversion from STOVL to STOBAR. But that is less of a leap and is more of a technical one and less of a doctrinal one. Plus the fact that the Viraat is still able to soldier on, is a 'cushion'.

Otherwise, I did find the exchange of posts (at least from one side) to be amusing rather than edifying.
 
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Vikramaditya is not perfect, but Indian Navy deemed it to be the best of the options it had.

The best option that they had maybe, by the lack of other 2nd had carriers back then, but that is not the issue! The mistake was not to go for the carrier, but to stick with the deal when they realized that it goes far away from the initial timelines and cost estimates! Just as IN simply did not took the best available options for the airwing to take on the coming threat of PLAN. So one has to criticize them for the waste of money on the one side and if they stick to the carrier, not to make it as capable as possible!
 
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Typical reply when pride blinds people and they have no arguments left. Enslaved to foreign suppliers lol what nonsese! :lol:
Wake up buddy, we need foreign help to design N-LCA, we need foreign help to fix the problems of the fighter, we need foreign help to fix and develop our puls doppler radar, we need foreign help to design and develop both indigenous carriers..., so we remain dependent on foreign support and equipment for years anyway, no matter if we call the developments indigenous or not. A Mig 29K with an indigenous radar and engine is more useful for IN than N-LCA, while a new IAC 1 is more worth the money than a refurbished Russian carrier at the same cost. Just as a naval AMCA development would make a lot of sense for IN's future, while N-LCA MK2 is just nonsense in all possible areas.
It's not the origin that makes a procurement or development useful and worth it, but if it makes operational and finacial sense!

*facepalm* . The person who claims to know better than the IN is blaming me for my "blind pride" :lol: Oh boy do i trust some dude on the Internet or the Indian Navy , tough choice:P . I was not against foreign equipment am simply supporting local defense industries so that they may get better in time , you cannot support local defense industries without buying their equipment . Chinese had their problems but now it has put them in a massive advantage.
 
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And the correctness of that choice was validated when the Russians themselves moth-balled the Flanker option for their own Navy, after the IN had ordered its Fulcrums.

Not really, since even Russian navy takes the Mig 29K s only as stop gaps, because they didn't want to spend more on the upgrades of the Su 33s, while the long term aim are naval are NG aircrafts. They simply took the benefits of us having no choice than to take the initial Migs, which results in far lower costs for them. We can see the same now at the Su 30SM too, which actually doesn't make sense for them since they purposely developed dedicated Flanker versions, but now prefer to choose the same version we took, to benefit from lower costs and soon even from similar upgrades.
And we might see similar when we want catapults from the US, if they will be combined with a US fighter deal as well.
 
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Ah Sancho, you seem to be still riding your favorite hobby-horse in the manner of Senor Don Quixote (the master of Sancho Panza) tilting at Windmills, here and there. :)
 
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I was not against foreign equipment am simply supporting local defense industries so that they may get better in time , you cannot support local defense industries without buying their equipment .

And again the usual silly claims. :rolleyes: Again, N-LCA MK2 does not give the industry anything, that they wouldn't get through a tech demo program, since it's only the navalising part that is new, normal upgrades like improved avionics or radar will be developed for the air force version anyway. That's why I said, IN would benefit far more, if they had just initiated the tech demo program, while aimed on using indigenous engines and radars for customized Mig 29Ks => improving the naval design and development capability at the one side and the operational capability of their carriers on the other! Simple and effective, but one can't brag about having an indigenous carrier fighter anymore of course. :D

Ah Sancho, you seem to be still riding your favorite hobby-horse in the manner of Senor Don Quixote (the master of Sancho Panza) tilting at Windmills, here and there. :)

Somebody has to show the other side and only because it's difficult, doesn't mean that one should not try. But that doesn't change the fact that Russian navy had other intentions with the Migs than you might think isn't it? :)
 
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And again the usual silly claims. :rolleyes: Again, N-LCA MK2 does not give the industry anything, that they wouldn't get through a tech demo program, since it's only the navalising part that is new, normal upgrades like improved avionics or radar will be developed for the air force version anyway. That's why I said, IN would benefit far more, if they had just initiated the tech demo program, while aimed on using indigenous engines and radars for customized Mig 29Ks => improving the naval design and development capability at the one side and the operational capability of their carriers on the other! Simple and effective, but one can't brag about having an indigenous carrier fighter anymore of course. :D

Riiight ....now IN is buying Naval variant of LCA just to brag about an indigenous fighter carrier . this is rather new from you.
Which Brings back to my earlier question, why would Navy select Naval LCA if it did not see any benefit in this. Please do not reply with " they are incompetent " .
 
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