INS Vikramaditya commissioned

[sancho]

But getting an 44,000 tonne aircraft carrier with service life of 40 years at 2.3 Billion is surely not a bad deal ?

Who says it has a service life of 40 years? Only because we replaced some systems and modified the deck, doesn't take away that it was in service for years and the hull remains the old one to a big extend. Also compared to our new carrier the costs, the limitations for the deck and hangar spaces, the limitations of aircrafts we had to take, the service life and the safer maintenance, clearly makes $2.3 billion for this carrier a huge waste of money and they will force us to pay more over the years too.

 

[Agent_47]

You won't see a greater video

 

[Star Wars]

Who says it has a service life of 40 years? Only because we replaced some systems and modified the deck, doesn't take away that it was in service for years and the hull remains the old one to a big extend. Also compared to our new carrier the costs, the limitations for the deck and hangar spaces, the limitations of aircrafts we had to take, the service life and the safer maintenance, clearly makes $2.3 billion for this carrier a huge waste of money and they will force us to pay more over the years too.

Are you assuming the Navy was incompetent to take the decision of buying the carrier . Because you are quiet short of suggesting that

 

[arp2041]

 

[sancho]

Are you assuming the Navy was incompetent to take the decision of buying the carrier . Because you are quiet short of suggesting that

Yes, as explained in the earlier post:

INS Vikramaditya commissioned | Page 27

 

[Star Wars]

Yes, as explained in the earlier post:

INS Vikramaditya commissioned | Page 27

You are over estimating the doom and gloom , the Navy would not buy it if it did not believe it was operationally feasible.
Neither you nor am i technically qualified when it comes to Construction and maintaining of Aircraft Carriers . So lets not make hasty judgments

 

[sancho]

You are over estimating the doom and gloom , the Navy would not buy it if it did not believe it was operationally feasible.

Operationally or finacially? Operationally they mean a clear capability increase compared to INS Viraat and Sea Harriers of course, but IN's operational use of AC's is also more than limited and far below the US, France or even UK. IN needs these carriers for decades only for basic Sea Control roles, but not for projecting power and offensive actions. That's why they can even compromise with N-LCAs and Ka 31s on their carriers, which hardly are useful in operational terms.
The simple fact is, they completely underestimated the work and the costs and now we have paid the price of a new carrier for an old one and an operational limited airwing, with several years of delay in induction (not to mention the additional costs to keep Viraat and Harriers updated, till this carrier would be availble). At the end of the day, they simply spent too much on it, to back out again.

 

[Star Wars]

Operationally or finacially? Operationally they mean a clear capability increase compared to INS Viraat and Sea Harriers of course, but IN's operational use of AC's is also more than limited and far below the US, France or even UK.

The money payed to Vikramaditya was well worth it considering its operational capability.
US France and UK have far larger and costlier Carriers, they are not supposed to be compared.

IN needs these carriers for decades only for basic Sea Control roles, but not for projecting power and offensive actions. That's why they can even compromise with N-LCAs and Ka 31s on their carriers, which hardly are useful in operational terms.

Can i get a source for that piece of information ? we already have upgraded Mig-29k's on the carrier. I have no idea were the N-LCA came into the the picture and considering the production variant of N-LCA are not out yet how you can make a judgement that it may be hardly usefull operational terms . You might as well ask DRDO and HAL to disband and quit their posts if you think N-LCA will be something which will be hardly useful operationally . And about Dhruv , its probably a stopgap measure until a new heli's are acquired ...

The simple fact is, they completely underestimated the work and the costs and now we have paid the price of a new carrier for an old one and an operational limited airwing,

Operationally limited air wing ? please explain ?

with several years of delay in induction (not to mention the additional costs to keep Viraat and Harriers updated, till this carrier would be available). At the end of the day, they simply spent too much on it, to back out again.

You may be misinformed , The Boilers, the equipment inside the entire wiring and cables , pipes and not to mention the hull was also reworked upon . We aren't sailing on the old ship anymore.There is a reason why it took time.

And claiming the Indian navy as incompetent just made you look a little bit less respectful in my eyes because you are clearly are not qualified to make such a rather Brash judgment.

 

[sancho]

US France and UK have far larger and costlier Carriers, they are not supposed to be compared

Not really, Vikramaditya is in the same class as the French CdG and the size or the cost doesn't matter wrt to the policy on how the carriers would be used, because the brits will have the same policy with their new QE 2 class carriers, that they had with their older Invincible class carriers.

Can i get a source for that piece of information ?

For what?

Operationally limited air wing ? please explain ?

N-LCAs that hardly be used with credible weapon loads, Ka 31 AEWs will offer poor detection capability and it's still needs to be seen if they can be refuelled in the air to extend their operations. The Migs remains the most capable aircrafts, but with crucial limitations in stand of strike roles, besides that it needs to be seen with what payload they will be able to take off.
And now look at what IN actually wanted! IAC 1 would had been a CATOBAR carrier if the US had provided catapults, they were interested in F18s and Rafale Ms and now that IAC 2 is in planing, E-2s are likely too, which might had been selected for IAC 1 with catapults as well. Now compare such an IAC 1 with Rafale and E-2s to what Vikramaditya, Migs, N-LCAs and Ka 31 offers.

The Boilers, the equipment inside the entire wiring and cables , pipes and not to mention the hull was also reworked upon . We aren't sailing on the old ship anymore.There is a reason why it took time.

So when we replace all those things you mentioned in INS Viraat, we can use it for 40 more years? Obviously not, because the base of the vessel remains the same and that is the case for Vikramaditya too, which still has the Gorshkov base.

 

[Star Wars]

Not really, Vikramaditya is in the same class as the French CdG and the size or the cost doesn't matter wrt to the policy on how the carriers would be used, because the brits will have the same policy with their new QE 2 class carriers, that they had with their older Invincible class carriers.

QE2 class and American carriers are far more larger and can carry a lot more Aircrafts and not to mention they are brand new carriers...

N-LCAs that hardly be used with credible weapon loads, Ka 31 AEWs will offer poor detection capability and it's still needs to be seen if they can be refuelled in the air to extend their operations. The Migs remains the most capable aircrafts, but with crucial limitations in stand of strike roles, besides that it needs to be seen with what payload they will be able to take off.
And now look at what IN actually wanted! IAC 1 would had been a CATOBAR carrier if the US had provided catapults, they were interested in F18s and Rafale Ms and now that IAC 2 is in planing, E-2s are likely too, which might had been selected for IAC 1 with catapults as well. Now compare such an IAC 1 with Rafale and E-2s to what Vikramaditya, Migs, N-LCAs and Ka 31 offers

.
Lets not talk about N-LCA's its not even under proper trials , Ka-31AEWs is also used by Russians on Kuznetsov aircraft carrier and also used by the Chinese as well.

"E-801M Oko (Eye) airborne electronic warfare radar that can track up to 20 targets simultaneously with aerial detection range 90 mi (150 km) and surface warships up to 160 mi (250 km)."

certain sources even suggest 30-40 targets , unless you can give me a comparative figure with other AEW systems . I don't find it poor in any way. Thats a brand new carrier we are building it is obviously going to be a lot better but its simply stupid to call the carrier "hardly operationally capable "

So when we replace all those things you mentioned in INS Viraat, we can use it for 40 more years? Obviously not, because the base of the vessel remains the same and that is the case for Vikramaditya too, which still has the Gorshkov base.

NO, but i was objecting to you calling the carrier "a waste of money" . Its an insult to those people serving aboard the ship ..

 

[sancho]

"E-801M Oko (Eye) airborne electronic warfare radar that can track up to 20 targets simultaneously...
...certain sources even suggest 30-40 targets , unless you can give me a comparative figure with other AEW systems

.

The radar of the ASaC7 can detect low flying aircraft and can track simultaneously 400 targets providing interception/attack control and over- the- horizon targeting for surface launched weapon system

http://s14.directupload.net/images/140621/tgmlmg5t.png

Thats a brand new carrier we are building it is obviously going to be a lot better but its simply stupid to call the carrier "hardly operationally capable "

It's neither a brand new carrier, nor does the carrier alone tell you something about it's operational capability, because the airwing is the crucial part of it's performance. As I said, it offers higher operational capability than the INS Viraat and the earlier Sea Harriers, which might be enough to carry out Sea Control roles against neighboring countries, BUT compared to other propper aircraft carriers, if clearly falls short!

- Russian, Chinese, French, (coming) British and all US carriers can carry more than 30 x aircrafts
- will have propper medium class, if not heavy class fighters, with better performance and eveb 4.5th and 5th gen capabilities
- the Ka 31 is one of the least capable available carrier based AEW and the base performance of the platform is lower compared to other AEW helicopters like the Sea King or Merlin helicopters too. The Chinese also have the Z8 helicopter with an AEW radar based on a radar developed for the Eurocopter Cougar. Not sure how capable that is, but it is said to be an AESA radar.
- if we can't refuel the Ka 31 in air, it's operation time is very limited, which means you have to counter that with more helicopters, to offer propper 24/7 surveillance

Even if you don't compare it with others but looked at what they could had chosen if they aimed on an at least propper capable you see clear differences!

Current airwing:

4th gen Mig 29Ks and most likely 4.5th N-LCA
Ka 31 AEW
Ka 28 / Sea King ASW


Airwing that could had been procured:

4th gen Mig 29Ks and 4.5th gen Rafale M F3+
Sea King or Merlin AEW (the latter with IFR) with Thales radar or even a V22 AEW
S70 / NH90 ASW

That would had made a clear operational difference, since IN would had been able to provide it's carriers with propper long range early warning capability, with more range and endurance as well as a more capable radar system, but also a mix of far more capable fighters, with propper offensive strike and air defence capabilities to target even enemy carriers or shore based assets.

NO, but i was objecting to you calling the carrier "a waste of money" . Its an insult to those people serving aboard the ship ..

No it's not, since they didn't decided to stick to a procurement that ran out of control in financial terms, nor to limit it's operational capabilities to very basic levels. And a 2nd hand foreign carrier, that costs as much as a new indigenous one, with more restrictions on airwing, maintenance and spares than Vikrant is a waste of money as sad as it is. Denying this reality doesn't get us anything, we only can try to make the best out of it and try to move around the possible future problems for the carrier and the aircrafts, if they remain dependent on Russian upgrades (more integration of Indian techs and spares, to reduce dependance on Russia).

 

[Star Wars]

.
No it's not, since they didn't decided to stick to a procurement that ran out of control in financial terms, nor to limit it's operational capabilities to very basic levels. And a 2nd hand foreign carrier, that costs as much as a new indigenous one, with more restrictions on airwing, maintenance and spares than Vikrant is a waste of money as sad as it is. Denying this reality doesn't get us anything, we only can try to make the best out of it and try to move around the possible future problems for the carrier and the aircrafts, if they remain dependent on Russian upgrades (more integration of Indian techs and spares, to reduce dependance on Russia).

What do you mean by the carrier we are building is "neither a brand new carrier" , A brand new aircraft carrier can have a much larger fighter compliment than reworked Laoning and Vikramaditya because of its construction .

Your opinion and your analysis, does not necessarily make it a reality it remains just that, an opinion . and again we do not really know the kind of work involved and what kind of maintenance will be required . Only those working and operating the carriers know whats really going on . So lets not speculate and make judgments over assumptions..

The Air wing on the carrier can be changed or upgraded at any point of time and we are not going to go against First world nations so the operational capability we have right now with the carrier is more than sufficient for the neighborhood that we have for the time being at-least..
I have more faith in the navy and their acquisition process. There is probably a reason they chose these aircrafts complements for the carrier. The new indigenous one will not be operational until 2020 at-least so we cannot just simply sit down and twiddle our thumbs till then and Viraat would have been operational till 2018 either way ,So blaming that on Vikramaditya's delay is incorrect . Navy had no qualms buying foreign equipment to further its capabilities so if they have not bought the equipment you suggested there is probably a good reason behind it ...

 

[sancho]

What do you mean by the carrier we are building is "neither a brand new carrier" , A brand new aircraft carrier can have a much larger fighter compliment than reworked Laoning and Vikramaditya because of its construction .

I meant Vikramaditya is not new, thought you were talking about that.

Your opinion and your analysis, does not necessarily make it a reality it remains just that, an opinion . and again we do not really know the kind of work involved and what kind of maintenance will be required . Only those working and operating the carriers know whats really going on . So lets not speculate and make judgments over assumptions..

Just as we shouldn't find excuses for obvious waste of money, for limiting operational capability because of pride and ego issues or because insane planing and project management, but IN has shown all of this by procuring this carrier and developing N-LCA MK2. If you want to ignore that and close your eyes, it's up to you.

The Air wing on the carrier can be changed or upgraded at any point of time

Not after they decided to procure more Migs and operational squadrons of N-LCA, since they are aimed to have an operational life of at least 30 years too. IN was forced to take the first 16 x Migs and Ka 31 initially, because the carrier deal was linked to them. But they could have added more capable aircrafts in addition to them, while they were evaluating the airwing of IAC 1, which should be common to Vikramadityas. So now the ship has literally sailed and they are stuck to these airwings, with their operational limitations.

and we are not going to go against First world nations so the operational capability we have right now with the carrier is more than sufficient for the neighborhood that we have for the time being at-least..

Even Viraat and Sea Harriers are more than sufficient for the neighborhood, because there is no operational need for a carrier to fight them. IN could easily gain sea control with their normal surface fleet, since they are simply so much more capable than any other navy in the region. The could even attack Pakistans shores using Mig 29Ks from INS Hansa in Goa, no need for a carrier there eiter, so the neighborhood is not an argument to limit the capability of Vikramaditya. But when you keep in mind that our threat perception has changed and that sooner or later IN might be capable to fight back a Chinese surface fleet, you have to have carriers that can take on such a threat and that's not possible by limiting our smaller carriers with less capable aircrafts!

 

[Star Wars]

I meant Vikramaditya is not new, thought you were talking about that.
Just as we shouldn't find excuses for obvious waste of money, for limiting operational capability because of pride and ego issues or because insane planing and project management, but IN has shown all of this by procuring this carrier and developing N-LCA MK2. If you want to ignore that and close your eyes, it's up to you.

So...my eyes are closed and am blind with my pride and ego because i disagree with you ? i expected better from you .... clearly someone here thinks he is smarter than the Indian Navy which i find quiet hilarious . You are a knowledgeable person but don't let that go to your head.

Not after they decided to procure more Migs and operational squadrons of N-LCA, since they are aimed to have an operational life of at least 30 years too. IN was forced to take the first 16 x Migs and Ka 31 initially, because the carrier deal was linked to them. But they could have added more capable aircrafts in addition to them, while they were evaluating the airwing of IAC 1, which should be common to Vikramadityas. So now the ship has literally sailed and they are stuck to these airwings, with their operational limitations.

It was also part of the deal for a reason , and how do you know N-LCA will not be operationally capable when N-LCA is still in trial phase and we do not even know when the aircrafts will be inducted . The Migs and Ka-31s are not going to remain there for 30 years , they are going to be eventually upgraded and the aircraft compliment changed as time progresses and as we have access to better systems . Just because the carrier deal was inked with them does not mean we are stuck with these aircrafts for the rest of the carriers life ..

Even Viraat and Sea Harriers are more than sufficient for the neighborhood, because there is no operational need for a carrier to fight them. IN could easily gain sea control with their normal surface fleet, since they are simply so much more capable than any other navy in the region. The could even attack Pakistans shores using Mig 29Ks from INS Hansa in Goa, no need for a carrier there eiter, so the neighborhood is not an argument to limit the capability of Vikramaditya. But when you keep in mind that our threat perception has changed and that sooner or later IN might be capable to fight back a Chinese surface fleet, you have to have carriers that can take on such a threat and that's not possible by limiting our smaller carriers with less capable aircrafts!

Seaharriers ? Viraat and Sea harriers are pretty much obsolete and any Destroyer or frigate with a considerable air defense system will be a threat to them . SO lets not even talk about Viraat . The Chinese navy does not have access to carriers and will not be able to operationally effectively deploy them for another decade or so.Vikramaditya with its complement of aircrafts and its Naval escorts should be a formidable fighting force for the Chinese navy to counter . Unless and until we are going up against western navies we should be fine ...

 

[sancho]

So...my eyes are closed and am blind with my pride and ego because i disagree with you ?

Where did I said that? But you tried to justify the cost-overruns that even CAG has slamed with the faith you have in IN and their competence. I only showed you that their competence is provenly flawed (just as I showed you that they could had got far more capable aircrafts and systems), when you look at the reality but if you admit that or not is up to you of course.

It was also part of the deal for a reason

Of course, because the Russians wanted to make money and they needed us to fund the Mig 29K and several modernisations, which otherwise would had been paid only by Russian navy. That's why they offered us the carrier for free with the condition to buy Russian aircrafts.

how do you know N-LCA will not be operationally capable when N-LCA is still in trial phase and we do not even know when the aircrafts will be inducted.

From statements of IN officials, from the fact that it won't have more hardpoints, or that the ski-jump take off will limit it's payload further than it already is. Once again, we do have infos and we can judge them or simply ignore them.

Just because the carrier deal was inked with them does not mean we are stuck with these aircrafts for the rest of the carriers life ..

As I explained earlier, not the fact that the deal was linked to them, but the fact that we chose additional aircrafts that will be used and IAC 1 makes clear that they will be base of the fleet for these carriers over their operational life. You can of course upgrade certain systems, but you can't counter design flaws, that makes them inferior compared to competitors. Even with AESA radar, the Mig will never be a Rafale or an F18SH.

The Chinese navy does not have access to carriers and will not be able to operationally effectively deploy them for another decade or so.

Which shows your level of denial. They have a carrier available today, have succesfully developed carrier fighter varients, have different naval helicopters for ASW or AEW roles, are developing catapults and catapult capable AEW aircrafts, are training with Brazilian navy for carrier operations, have credible access to the Ukraine forces and industry for experience and techs and what is most worrisome are developinh stealth aircrafts for their carriers.
All we have is, decades of experience with older carriers and in future 2 carriers that will carry roughly the ammount of aircrafts a single Chinese carrier will have.[/quote]